Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969 
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Post by Enigma on Mar 21, 2018 15:39:33 GMT
I'm guessing Pilgrim has no intention of ending the seeking. There's just too much fun information to acquire.  He is the another example for you to see! A person who would like to continue to read more and more and not willing to see anything. And I see that. He was born with certain propensities, but mostly that's how he's been conditioned. (like everybody else) It's been useful for him up to a point. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Mar 21, 2018 15:42:09 GMT
Well said. I actually thought we were all pretty much in agreement about the tenuous connection between realization in general and outward behavior. The idea that behavior should be directly affected assumes that the person has been in charge of his life all along After all, the person is not the one being set free. So person is the one who believes that he is separate individual? It's the belief in the separate, volitional individual, yes. |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 21, 2018 16:43:14 GMT
This is simple and easy matter but that would never reach them, you see that as a problem, but I don't! that's the way they are. you would be hoping that one day they would be seeing this truth, but I don't. No, I don't see it as a problem that they don't understand, but I've also not closed the door to the possibility that they might. And really I wouldn't say that I'm "hoping" they see things my way.....like you, I also enjoy these discussions/arguments for the very experience of them....I'm not attached to any particular outcome. Yup. |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 21, 2018 16:56:37 GMT
ZD seem to have eaten that first and then rest of the people are pretending to have eaten! That's funny Gopal, 'cause that's precisely how I see it. For the longest time, there seemed to be consensus that experiences, however profound they may seem to be, were not 'truthy,' and then ZD started talking about CC experiences and then suddenly Reefs reared up claiming to have had one and it gained momentum from there..... That's interesting, and that really is the perfect way to put it: One does not need to know for certain that the appearing individuals in his story are experiencing...the body knows what to do next, and all absent such minding/knowing. yeah....I hafta say, I've not seen ZD clearly state either way whether or not he knows the existence of other individuals....BUT, he has seemingly been agreeing with Reefs which seems to suggest that he too, via CC experiences, thinks he knows that others are experiencing. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 6:44:39 GMT
ZD seem to have eaten that first and then rest of the people are pretending to have eaten! That's funny Gopal, 'cause that's precisely how I see it. For the longest time, there seemed to be consensus that experiences, however profound they may seem to be, were not 'truthy,' and then ZD started talking about CC experiences and then suddenly Reefs reared up claiming to have had one and it gained momentum from there..... That's interesting, and that really is the perfect way to put it: One does not need to know for certain that the appearing individuals in his story are experiencing...the body knows what to do next, and all absent such minding/knowing. yeah....I hafta say, I've not seen ZD clearly state either way whether or not he knows the existence of other individuals....BUT, he has seemingly been agreeing with Reefs which seems to suggest that he too, via CC experiences, thinks he knows that others are experiencing. I just assume and act as if there are others who are experiencing like me. Whether they are or not makes no difference to me so why should I be concerned about it as long as my interactions with these so-called others furthers and satisfies my needs? I make the same assumptions about the reality and solidity of the world and it does me no harm, just like a dream. |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 22, 2018 15:43:27 GMT
That's funny Gopal, 'cause that's precisely how I see it. For the longest time, there seemed to be consensus that experiences, however profound they may seem to be, were not 'truthy,' and then ZD started talking about CC experiences and then suddenly Reefs reared up claiming to have had one and it gained momentum from there..... That's interesting, and that really is the perfect way to put it: One does not need to know for certain that the appearing individuals in his story are experiencing...the body knows what to do next, and all absent such minding/knowing. yeah....I hafta say, I've not seen ZD clearly state either way whether or not he knows the existence of other individuals....BUT, he has seemingly been agreeing with Reefs which seems to suggest that he too, via CC experiences, thinks he knows that others are experiencing. I just assume and act as if there are others who are experiencing like me. Whether they are or not makes no difference to me so why should I be concerned about it as long as my interactions with these so-called others furthers and satisfies my needs? I make the same assumptions about the reality and solidity of the world and it does me no harm, just like a dream. Hi Satchi. Yup. Well said. Indeed, the absence of certainty really is of no consequence in terms of how we engage others. In terms of interactions, nothing really changes. It's the foundational seeing of emptiness that is of importance...which results in an overall absence of attachment to the story content, as a whole. When folks claim to somehow be certain that appearing people are in fact experiencing, it calls into question that overall seeing. |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 22, 2018 16:33:01 GMT
Considering a realization is always going to come up short if you have not yet actually had the realization.
SR is the realization that all there is, is Self. Indeed that involves 'unknowing' and indeed there is no acquisition involved in terms of conceptual, substantive knowledge, but it's ridiculous to think that somehow there could be an actual "realization" that self is illusion without also seeing Oneness/no separation....It is the absence of separation that gives way to the absence of personhood.
If it's realized that 'it's all Self,' that of course takes care of any prior belief in personhood as well as seeing the Unity. You simply cannot have one without the other
What you are describing is not actual 'realization' but rather, just a conceptual understanding...a grasp upon the 'idea' of 'there is no person.' Actual SR does not leave 'disassociation' in its wake. Quite the opposite. To know/see that All is One, results in a deep and pervasive sense of association/unity of the entirety of 'this.'
And for what it's worth, a true "Oneness realization" does not leave one attached to an experience. The realization of Oneness, is after all, NOT an experience. There is nothing there TO attach to. Therein lies the problem with CC experiences...while they can at times accompany realization, they can also muddy the waters because folks take the experiential component and attach to it. That experiential component though, is not 'the realizational' component.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Mar 22, 2018 23:49:01 GMT
That's funny Gopal, 'cause that's precisely how I see it. For the longest time, there seemed to be consensus that experiences, however profound they may seem to be, were not 'truthy,' and then ZD started talking about CC experiences and then suddenly Reefs reared up claiming to have had one and it gained momentum from there..... That's interesting, and that really is the perfect way to put it: One does not need to know for certain that the appearing individuals in his story are experiencing...the body knows what to do next, and all absent such minding/knowing. yeah....I hafta say, I've not seen ZD clearly state either way whether or not he knows the existence of other individuals....BUT, he has seemingly been agreeing with Reefs which seems to suggest that he too, via CC experiences, thinks he knows that others are experiencing. I just assume and act as if there are others who are experiencing like me. Whether they are or not makes no difference to me so why should I be concerned about it as long as my interactions with these so-called others furthers and satisfies my needs? I make the same assumptions about the reality and solidity of the world and it does me no harm, just like a dream. Yup. |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 25, 2018 18:25:02 GMT
Yes.
Important to note; Those of us here whom Andrew has labelled as "metaphysical solipsists" no longer cart around that question....we all say it has indeed become moot...and that the absence of knowing matters not at all in terms of how we engage with appearing people.
Thus, as you say, Pointers, understood as such, DO indeed become an important qualititative aspect of the discussion.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 25, 2018 18:57:23 GMT
Yup. That's what all of us you've labelled as "solipsists." have been saying too.
The question is misconceived and beyond a simple seeing that all experiential content, people included, arise within I am/existence and thus, have no known independent existence of their own, there are really no huge ramifications to seeing that all appearances are empty, in terms of how we go on to behave towards and engage with appearing people.
You took what was meant to be a casual mention or aside to the larger seeing that all appearances are empty, and turned it into a federal case, because you just could not bear the idea that some were suggesting that appearing people might be nothing more than apparitional characters in what is the equivalent of a waking dream.
The bottom line here is that either one sees that there is no separate, existent world 'out there' or he doesn't. Either one sees that the phenomenal world arises within I am/existence, or he doesn't. Clearly, you don't.
And it's not just your vehement insistence that you somehow have certainty about appearances that are empty, but you also give it away in your views about the world. One who sees that the world arises within him, is not going to find himself compelled to try to create a new world-wide system of government, to heal/balance the world. Rather, he's going to be crystal clear that that kind of world, where 'systems' have the power to affect and cause such change, is non-existent...that really, It's all an inside job...that, The very idea of 'an existent world' is itself, a delusion.
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