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Post by Figgles on Jul 13, 2017 17:20:24 GMT
So what's the causal/non causal argument? We say that SR is uncaused but what about purification which can be considered as a process in time. When a fruit ripens it is happening in time and can be observed and evaluated. Should spiritual ripening be treated any differently? AS I see it, there is indeed a point where it is important to see that it's all just happening, unfolding, as one fundamental, foundational movement, thus, there is no actual volitional chooser/doer, thus no actual path, thus, no decipherable cause.... but you sure dont' wanna get stuck holding to and defending that seeing. All that indicates is that you are feeling the need to deny appearances in favor of a focus upon the fundamentals....which only happens when appearances still got ya by the short & curlies.  Integration means engagement with all that appears, and 'processes' happening in time, are part and parcel of that. There is a point where the acknowledgment of the appearance/experience of paths and processes gets included in the umbrella of understanding that all is happening as one movement. Thus, there is no conflict at all in talking about a process towards spiritual ripening AND also talking about how there is fundamentally no cause or path to SR. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 13, 2017 17:35:18 GMT
If there is one thing I've learned in the last few years, is that 'enlightenment' takes such different form within the individual expression, that the concept is largely useless. Same applies to SR. How do we compare UG with Tolle, Byron Katie with Niz, Tony Parsons with Ramana? We have debated endlessly over who is enlightened (and there is irony in that obviously). Equally, in our own circle, how do we compare you and Reefs? Or Satch and Tenka? Or Enigma and Tzu Jan Li and Source? Or...well, you get the drift I'm sure. So the way I see it is that the idea of there being 'enlightenment' may only be of value to a certain kind of person. It is a sort of general term which may get people moving in the 'right' direction. But what is that right direction? Well, I would say it is all about purification, though there may come a point on the pathless path where one no longer feels moved to engage with that process, in a sense, purification happens organically. Equally there may come a point on the path where the purification is handled elegantly and gracefully so that it doesn't seem like there is a purification. The idea of 'purification' sounds somewhat effortful and noble, but it doesn't have to be like that. In my opinion, there is a collective purification happening which even the teachers and spiritually advanced are subject to. The final point of that process would be...no more collective illusion/falsity. The paradox of that is that purification can be seen to be part of the illusion/falsity, but as I see it, we don't transcend that illusion by denying it or standing outside of it, we transcend it by standing within it. Love this post Andrew.  ....Yes, awakening to Oneness is just the beginning. I would say, the gate to 'purification' indeed begins with the realization that all is one, no fundamental separation, thus, no path or practice. But as I was talking about in my previous post, it's important to also see that the experiential is still very much relevant. Thus, I would say that the very first step into the direction of purification is the embracing of the fundamental Truth of Oneness in tandem with an embracing of the experiential. (This sounds like a no brainer...after all, if all is one...yada, yada, but i see some folks wanting to sort of exclude the experiential...we talked about that a time or two. ) Eschewing the experiential in favor of the fundamental, (which manifests in insistence that there is no path, nothing to purify, etc.) is itself a temporary blockage to the unfolding process of purification. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 13, 2017 17:46:41 GMT
Another representation of purity can be perceived through one's aura . Peeps vibratory rate is expressed through one's energy field . Here's a weird thing. I had an aura photo taken in Byron Bay and it came out almost entirely green. I liked it a lot so kept it, put it in a box and forgot it. A few years later I was having a clear out, I looked at the photo and the colour had changed to gold. Like it had somehow updated itself. Cool. "updated itself," perfect term. I change the colors of my interior home every few years.....my 'favorite' colors have morphed over the years, and I've always found it interesting to observe a passion for a particular color or color scheme arise to the degree that I would just have to express that in my surroundings. Around 30 yrs. ago....my rooms were decorated in pastels...pinks, blues, mauves, lots of peach, with an urge a little later on to add a very particular shade of 'pucey' green....the next 'phase,' saw bright orangey red, lime green, deep purple, then, years later, mossy green, red, gold, and now, aqua green, turqoise, purples, mauves, blue...and still a little of that pucey shade of green...and just recently a bright shade of pink. Around the time the passion towards this new color phase started, I started (again) to see aura's quite clearly. I spotted my own as I looked in the mirror one day, against a white background; Not so suprisingly.....all the colors I was finding myself, presently so deeply attracted to. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 13, 2017 17:55:30 GMT
I am sure mainstream science won't agree with you on that score . They are kinda cool though, I mean there are no two pics exactly a like . Each colour can represent a state of being / mind . Some aura's can change moment by moment, some stay similar depending on what is captured . I had one taken many years ago and it contained a lot of purple / violet with a white blob over my face . There where two streaks / columns of light either side of me and there was a distinct image of what looked like an egyptian cat coming over my head . This was at a similar time to when I was having memories of my pharaoh lifetime . Very cool indeed . Back to the subject of purity and frequencies / vibrations I think these energy capturing photo's can reflect / represent one's state of mind / being to some degree . Many mediums read the colours don't they and colours are just frequencies .. I mean the photo of a master with an open heart won't be similar to the dude that has just bashed up his wife . I associate a level of purity with one's energy signature / frequency / vibration . In terms of the Self realized the vibratory rate will be much higher than the selfish ignorant pig .. Yes I have no problem talking about it in terms of frequency and vibration, but for me, a more generally relatable way to talk about this is in terms of intention. In one of Lynne McTaggart's books, I forget which, she talked about an experiment on plants. They recorded a bunch of plants micro responses. When one of the plants was attacked, they all responded in alarm. Interesting. Even more interesting is that when the guy faked an attack, the plants remained calm. They could read his intention.
I see the purifying as a purification of intention. An obvious way to say this is to become genuinely more harmless. Pseudo harmlessness doesn't work. Then again, that's not to say that there is no place for force, and maybe even anger can come with a purity. I was having a bit of a rant to my kids the other day about swim pool safety, and mid rant a butterfly came and settled on my shoulder. Put me off my rant a bit he he. As an aside, but not totally irrelevant, the film Whiplash explores 'intention' well. It is kind of a movie about the zen stick, but in a different context. Yes, in terms of purification, intention is the root....is what what initially shifts to create all the other experiential shifts. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 13, 2017 19:14:43 GMT
Yes. Many different ideas about what precisely it means and how it happens, for sure. Yes, many paths for purification of the mind. Some that are thousands of years old. But how many actually work? We just have to look around at the consensual world to answer that question. Well, if we're looking from the angle of 'a path,' the part about that that 'works' is the interest/intention that put one there. so long as sincere interest/intent remains strong, one will keep following along....it could be argued that paths that don't bear fruit are just paths where interest/intent waned. Of course, it's also important to see, that interest/intent is out of the hands of one who thinks a particular path is 'his' idea. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 13, 2017 19:22:16 GMT
Am curious to hear opinions here; Was Niz's fatal cancer evidence of an absence of purification?
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969 
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Post by Enigma on Jul 13, 2017 23:02:19 GMT
So what's the causal/non causal argument? We say that SR is uncaused but what about purification which can be considered as a process in time. When a fruit ripens it is happening in time and can be observed and evaluated. Should spiritual ripening be treated any differently? Yes, clearly a process, and caused in the context of the person. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jul 13, 2017 23:10:07 GMT
If there is one thing I've learned in the last few years, is that 'enlightenment' takes such different form within the individual expression, that the concept is largely useless. Same applies to SR. How do we compare UG with Tolle, Byron Katie with Niz, Tony Parsons with Ramana? We have debated endlessly over who is enlightened (and there is irony in that obviously). Equally, in our own circle, how do we compare you and Reefs? Or Satch and Tenka? Or Enigma and Tzu Jan Li and Source? Or...well, you get the drift I'm sure. So the way I see it is that the idea of there being 'enlightenment' may only be of value to a certain kind of person. It is a sort of general term which may get people moving in the 'right' direction. But what is that right direction? Well, I would say it is all about purification, though there may come a point on the pathless path where one no longer feels moved to engage with that process, in a sense, purification happens organically. Equally there may cone a point on the path where the purification is handled elegantly and gracefully so that it doesn't seem like there is a purification. But in my opinion, there is a collective purification happening which even the teachers and spiritually advanced are subject to. The final point of that process would be...no more collective illusion/falsity. You make an excellent point that there isn't one single correct expression of awakening. The only correct expression of awakening is inexpressible. The inexpressible expression? |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jul 13, 2017 23:12:07 GMT
Another representation of purity can be perceived through one's aura . Peeps vibratory rate is expressed through one's energy field . Here's a weird thing. I had an aura photo taken in Byron Bay and it came out almost entirely green. I liked it a lot so kept it, put it in a box and forgot it. A few years later I was having a clear out, I looked at the photo and the colour had changed to gold. Like it had somehow updated itself. I hope you stopped using that brand of film. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jul 13, 2017 23:25:41 GMT
I am sure mainstream science won't agree with you on that score . They are kinda cool though, I mean there are no two pics exactly a like . Each colour can represent a state of being / mind . Some aura's can change moment by moment, some stay similar depending on what is captured . I had one taken many years ago and it contained a lot of purple / violet with a white blob over my face . There where two streaks / columns of light either side of me and there was a distinct image of what looked like an egyptian cat coming over my head . This was at a similar time to when I was having memories of my pharaoh lifetime . Very cool indeed . Back to the subject of purity and frequencies / vibrations I think these energy capturing photo's can reflect / represent one's state of mind / being to some degree . Many mediums read the colours don't they and colours are just frequencies .. I mean the photo of a master with an open heart won't be similar to the dude that has just bashed up his wife . I associate a level of purity with one's energy signature / frequency / vibration . In terms of the Self realized the vibratory rate will be much higher than the selfish ignorant pig .. Yes I have no problem talking about it in terms of frequency and vibration, but for me, a more generally relatable way to talk about this is in terms of intention. In one of Lynne McTaggart's books, I forget which, she talked about an experiment on plants. They recorded a bunch of plants micro responses. When one of the plants was attacked, they all responded in alarm. Interesting. Even more interesting is that when the guy faked an attack, the plants remained calm. They could read his intention.I see the purifying as a purification of intention. An obvious way to say this is to become genuinely more harmless. Pseudo harmlessness doesn't work. Then again, that's not to say that there is no place for force, and maybe even anger can come with a purity. I was having a bit of a rant to my kids the other day about swim pool safety, and mid rant a butterfly came and settled on my shoulder. Put me off my rant a bit he he. As an aside, but not totally irrelevant, the film Whiplash explores 'intention' well. It is kind of a movie about the zen stick, but in a different context. I can't help but wonder what the biological advantage would be of a plant being able to know your aggressive intention. I mean, it's not like they can run up a tree or sumthin. |
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