Post by Figgles on Jul 13, 2021 20:41:08 GMT
Zazeniac: What the h#ll does that mean? Is it that the "I" we identify as has no locus. In other words we can sense our middle finger in a variety of ways, but we can't really sense "me" the same way. Is that it? Is it a CC hallucination where you witnessed yourself creating the universe? I mean I understand the idea and accept this premise, but it doesn't change how I live. Zilch impact. It's interesting. It has implications about life, but folks that buy into it and beat others over the head with it as if it were a drumstick seem as f$cked up as I am.
Now I accept that there are folks who read a dialog by RM or a McKenna book or attend a satsang given by Parsons and go "Oh yeah!" "It all makes sense now." But I suspect there wasn't much need for them to do anything anyways. In the vernacular of RM, their "vasanas" were pretty much non-existent to begin with.
Ordinary folk like me, hear the spiel about the svp and go. "It makes sense. It seems true." But we go on living with our demons just as before. Some of us are deluded into thinking we're somehow better, or free but it becomes pretty obvious quickly we're not.
For me, "there's no svp" is like "so what?"
I mean at first it was an interesting idea and exciting prospect and I tried it on unsuspecting folk to see their reactions, but if you're an a$$hole before that "realization" you're likely one after.
It's meaningless at this point.
Now I accept that there are folks who read a dialog by RM or a McKenna book or attend a satsang given by Parsons and go "Oh yeah!" "It all makes sense now." But I suspect there wasn't much need for them to do anything anyways. In the vernacular of RM, their "vasanas" were pretty much non-existent to begin with.
Ordinary folk like me, hear the spiel about the svp and go. "It makes sense. It seems true." But we go on living with our demons just as before. Some of us are deluded into thinking we're somehow better, or free but it becomes pretty obvious quickly we're not.
For me, "there's no svp" is like "so what?"
I mean at first it was an interesting idea and exciting prospect and I tried it on unsuspecting folk to see their reactions, but if you're an a$$hole before that "realization" you're likely one after.
It's meaningless at this point.
It's entirely understandable how the "seeing through the SVP" term can begin to sound like Dogma. I've been contemplating myself the importance of perhaps using different terminology that's more descriptive. While there is no substitute of course, for the shift in vantage point/absence that is realization, there is such a thing as a conceptual grasp and I think the SVP term sometimes serves more to muddle things for the seeker, than clarify.
It's really difficult to explain even what 'separation' is referencing to one who is still identified with 'the person.' I really do think the best way to conceputually attempt to explain is with the pointer that any-thing and every-thing arising in experience, from the most basic and nuanced of senses, thoughts, feelings, all the way up to defined objects, life circumstances, situations, everything "perceivable," is "empty appearance only--not existent in it's own right--appearing dependent upon the abiding, unchanging ground from which it arises.
I am seeing that unless the totality of the perceivable realm is included in this seeing of "empty appearance only," there will continue to be residual, mis-taken identification with perceivables....and that is very much what we're seeing with those who are conflating experiential content/seeing during a CC/Kensho experience, with (T)ruth.
The body/mind, the character, the pattern of thought/ideation, the personality, all that stuff that the seeker deems to be "what he is," must be realized as "empty appearance only," relative to the ground, which abides.
To me approaching THIS is about hard work. Dogged determination. Building a new mental habit when every other habit that's been formed over the past 65 years or so works against this new one.
It is what Niz did. What the dzogchen.
masters offer:" short moments of peace repeated many times." What RM offered. Zen.
The process of building this new habit is arduous, but cumulative and there are longer moments of peace.
It seems to me that for us ordinary folk the svp spiel is just to soften the ground for the seed of practice.
It is what Niz did. What the dzogchen.
masters offer:" short moments of peace repeated many times." What RM offered. Zen.
The process of building this new habit is arduous, but cumulative and there are longer moments of peace.
It seems to me that for us ordinary folk the svp spiel is just to soften the ground for the seed of practice.
Actually, it's the imagined separate, volitional person/entity that's behind the sense/need FOR arduous, effortful practice.
Building new habits and longer moments of peace is a good thing for the person...makes for a better dream, but it has nothing to do with actually awakening TO the dream as a dream.
.. but seriously, this is always going to be the crux of the seeking (done consciously, or not), some form of a refined, distilled duality/dichotomy, and there's no denying the convincing nature of the unique, sensory perspective centered on the individual. As you say, it's not what people think it is, and I appreciate your focus in the commentary on guiding the seeker in how to proceed with confronting what I think of as the existential dilemma.