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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 19:22:53 GMT
How come? You see we both agree that we are always witnessing, no matter whether we realize this truth or not. We are the silent witness behind the movie(Reality),right? Whatever happens is being witnessed, arising of decision is being witnessed, arising of angry is being witnessed, arising of love is being witnessed. Everything is witnessed, we are not deciding but we are experiencing the decision which has been set at our lesser conscious level. So no matter what, we are always witnessing the happening. So the question is, what is the difference between the one who knows he is witnessing and the one who doesn't know he is witnessing? If one realized the truth of he is witnessing then the unfolding story has to support the realization, otherwise what's the use of that realization?You can act, that's not the problem, but there is a difference between when you witnessing the sea shore and when you are witnessing the crucifixion,right? Yeah, okay, I'm with you up to the bolded part; What exactly does it look like, when the unfolding story supports the realization that I am the witness? How and why does that change the unfolding circumstances? I get how it would change the feelings that arise, but why necessarily the form/content? As far as the whole 'witness' thing goes, I would say,There is always a silent witness that can be seen and accessed, if necessary, yes. Being/experiencing AS the silent witness, is a particular vantage point...a particular juncture along the pathless path. At 2nd mountain, where 'there is no mountain,' one can become quite entrenched in 'witnessing mode.' He stands firmly in that position and to all else that arises, sees and says, 'not me.' Witness/witnessing is important thing to see/realize, but you don't wanna get stuck there. One is able to remain at peace at this juncture, through adhering to 'witness mode,' and thereby postionally holding himself 'apart from' unwanted happenings/appearances that would otherwise hurt deeply. The reason this 'holding apart' is necessary at this juncture, is because integration has not yet happened. There is still fear and a strong aversion to getting 'sucked into' being an unconscious character in the 'movie,' and actively, consciously adopting the position of witness, is a way to make sure that does not happen. Witnessing 'insulates' one from the unfolding drama, but by the same token, it also insulates one from the joy of full immersion in being/experience. At 3rd mountain, where there is once again a mountain, there is integration of the witness and the character. That does not mean that the character ever starts believing again that he is in fact a separate acting character, or that he loses sight completely of 'the witness,' but rather, there is a melding that happens.....where there's no longer any need to hold to any particular vantage point, for fear of getting swept up and away in the delusion of believing I am a separately acting character. And yes, in experiencing a sea shore, vs. a crucifixtion, there will likely indeed be a difference in the arising responses....I would say compassion actually 'increases' when full integration of witness and actor happens....after all, in the actual experience of 'not two,' there is a natural opening of the heart. But, inherent in that integrative melding of all 'facets' of Self, is the fundamental understanding that regardless of what may appearing, all is well, perfect, unfolding in perfection. That means that a surface arising of a sense of deep aversion to the circumstance, will be mitigated and colored by that underlying knowing/sense of goodness. That's how I see 'peace' making itself known through experience. Good points, all, figs. In my way of seeing it, we really don't give up the relative world at all in favor of empty-nothingingness, we simply stop identifying with 'change' is the way I relate with it.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 6:50:28 GMT
How come? You see we both agree that we are always witnessing, no matter whether we realize this truth or not. We are the silent witness behind the movie(Reality),right? Whatever happens is being witnessed, arising of decision is being witnessed, arising of angry is being witnessed, arising of love is being witnessed. Everything is witnessed, we are not deciding but we are experiencing the decision which has been set at our lesser conscious level. So no matter what, we are always witnessing the happening. So the question is, what is the difference between the one who knows he is witnessing and the one who doesn't know he is witnessing? If one realized the truth of he is witnessing then the unfolding story has to support the realization, otherwise what's the use of that realization?You can act, that's not the problem, but there is a difference between when you witnessing the sea shore and when you are witnessing the crucifixion,right? Yeah, okay, I'm with you up to the bolded part; What exactly does it look like, when the unfolding story supports the realization that I am the witness? How and why does that change the unfolding circumstances? I get how it would change the feelings that arise, but why necessarily the form/content? As far as the whole 'witness' thing goes, I would say,There is always a silent witness that can be seen and accessed, if necessary, yes. Being/experiencing AS the silent witness, is a particular vantage point...a particular juncture along the pathless path. What do you mean by "witness that can be seen and accessed"? I don't understand here. How come witness can be seen? Witness is the seer, Witness is the awareness/consciousness.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 6:52:50 GMT
How come? You see we both agree that we are always witnessing, no matter whether we realize this truth or not. We are the silent witness behind the movie(Reality),right? Whatever happens is being witnessed, arising of decision is being witnessed, arising of angry is being witnessed, arising of love is being witnessed. Everything is witnessed, we are not deciding but we are experiencing the decision which has been set at our lesser conscious level. So no matter what, we are always witnessing the happening. So the question is, what is the difference between the one who knows he is witnessing and the one who doesn't know he is witnessing? If one realized the truth of he is witnessing then the unfolding story has to support the realization, otherwise what's the use of that realization?You can act, that's not the problem, but there is a difference between when you witnessing the sea shore and when you are witnessing the crucifixion,right? At 2nd mountain, where 'there is no mountain,' one can become quite entrenched in 'witnessing mode.' He stands firmly in that position and to all else that arises, sees and says, 'not me.' Witness/witnessing is important thing to see/realize, but you don't wanna get stuck there. One is able to remain at peace at this juncture, through adhering to 'witness mode,' and thereby postionally holding himself 'apart from' unwanted happenings/appearances that would otherwise hurt deeply.
This is what I am deeply confused. Something is happening out there which has the possibility to hurt you? Would you consider the same statement for your nightly dream as well? If not, why not?
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 7:09:39 GMT
How come? You see we both agree that we are always witnessing, no matter whether we realize this truth or not. We are the silent witness behind the movie(Reality),right? Whatever happens is being witnessed, arising of decision is being witnessed, arising of angry is being witnessed, arising of love is being witnessed. Everything is witnessed, we are not deciding but we are experiencing the decision which has been set at our lesser conscious level. So no matter what, we are always witnessing the happening. So the question is, what is the difference between the one who knows he is witnessing and the one who doesn't know he is witnessing? If one realized the truth of he is witnessing then the unfolding story has to support the realization, otherwise what's the use of that realization?You can act, that's not the problem, but there is a difference between when you witnessing the sea shore and when you are witnessing the crucifixion,right? At 3rd mountain, where there is once again a mountain, there is integration of the witness and the character. That does not mean that the character ever starts believing again that he is in fact a separate acting character, or that he loses sight completely of 'the witness,' but rather, there is a melding that happens.....where there's no longer any need to hold to any particular vantage point, for fear of getting swept up and away in the delusion of believing I am a separately acting character. And yes, in experiencing a sea shore, vs. a crucifixion, there will likely indeed be a difference in the arising responses....I would say compassion actually 'increases' when full integration of witness and actor happens....after all, in the actual experience of 'not two,' there is a natural opening of the heart. But, inherent in that integrative melding of all 'facets' of Self, is the fundamental understanding that regardless of what may appearing, all is well, perfect, unfolding in perfection. That means that a surface arising of a sense of deep aversion to the circumstance, will be mitigated and colored by that underlying knowing/sense of goodness. That's how I see 'peace' making itself known through experience. You don't have to remember or kind of sense is necessary for you to look like a witness. This is what I keep saying that direct seeing straighten the creation according to your newly realized truth, you don't have to remember anything. You see we can compare the movie with reality to understand what's the meaning of witness but in the case of movie(Assume the condition now we are literally watching the movie because watching the movie is also part of the inclusion of reality), we are only witnessing the movie, we are not creating and watching the movie(Infact we do but eliminate right now just for understanding the truth of witness). But in reality, we are witnessing what's arising from us, so we are not only witnessing the reality, but creating as well, we are perceiving and creating simultaneously, So according to our realization or direct seeing, then movie direction starts to turn it's direction, So it's not completely equivalent to watching the movie in theater. Peace is when you have the free look, not when you will be pulled by the feeling of avoiding, you are in peace when you create your reality consistently this way.
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Post by Figgles on May 9, 2017 15:12:29 GMT
Yeah, okay, I'm with you up to the bolded part; What exactly does it look like, when the unfolding story supports the realization that I am the witness? How and why does that change the unfolding circumstances? I get how it would change the feelings that arise, but why necessarily the form/content? As far as the whole 'witness' thing goes, I would say,There is always a silent witness that can be seen and accessed, if necessary, yes. Being/experiencing AS the silent witness, is a particular vantage point...a particular juncture along the pathless path. At 2nd mountain, where 'there is no mountain,' one can become quite entrenched in 'witnessing mode.' He stands firmly in that position and to all else that arises, sees and says, 'not me.' Witness/witnessing is important thing to see/realize, but you don't wanna get stuck there. One is able to remain at peace at this juncture, through adhering to 'witness mode,' and thereby postionally holding himself 'apart from' unwanted happenings/appearances that would otherwise hurt deeply. The reason this 'holding apart' is necessary at this juncture, is because integration has not yet happened. There is still fear and a strong aversion to getting 'sucked into' being an unconscious character in the 'movie,' and actively, consciously adopting the position of witness, is a way to make sure that does not happen. Witnessing 'insulates' one from the unfolding drama, but by the same token, it also insulates one from the joy of full immersion in being/experience. At 3rd mountain, where there is once again a mountain, there is integration of the witness and the character. That does not mean that the character ever starts believing again that he is in fact a separate acting character, or that he loses sight completely of 'the witness,' but rather, there is a melding that happens.....where there's no longer any need to hold to any particular vantage point, for fear of getting swept up and away in the delusion of believing I am a separately acting character. And yes, in experiencing a sea shore, vs. a crucifixtion, there will likely indeed be a difference in the arising responses....I would say compassion actually 'increases' when full integration of witness and actor happens....after all, in the actual experience of 'not two,' there is a natural opening of the heart. But, inherent in that integrative melding of all 'facets' of Self, is the fundamental understanding that regardless of what may appearing, all is well, perfect, unfolding in perfection. That means that a surface arising of a sense of deep aversion to the circumstance, will be mitigated and colored by that underlying knowing/sense of goodness. That's how I see 'peace' making itself known through experience. Good points, all, figs. In my way of seeing it, we really don't give up the relative world at all in favor of empty-nothingingness, we simply stop identifying with 'change' is the way I relate with it. Yes, great way of putting it! (and you got there in waaaay less words too! )
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Post by Figgles on May 9, 2017 15:16:55 GMT
Yeah, okay, I'm with you up to the bolded part; What exactly does it look like, when the unfolding story supports the realization that I am the witness? How and why does that change the unfolding circumstances? I get how it would change the feelings that arise, but why necessarily the form/content? As far as the whole 'witness' thing goes, I would say,There is always a silent witness that can be seen and accessed, if necessary, yes. Being/experiencing AS the silent witness, is a particular vantage point...a particular juncture along the pathless path. What do you mean by "witness that can be seen and accessed"? I don't understand here. How come witness can be seen? Witness is the seer, Witness is the awareness/consciousness. I see it more as 'witnessing happens,' but if we are identifying with/as 'witness,' that equals taking a step beyond unfettered Being into objectification, into conceputalizing and identifying. To say "I am THE WITNESS," in my estimation, is to create an object out of 'witnessing' itself.
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Post by Figgles on May 9, 2017 15:20:24 GMT
At 2nd mountain, where 'there is no mountain,' one can become quite entrenched in 'witnessing mode.' He stands firmly in that position and to all else that arises, sees and says, 'not me.' Witness/witnessing is important thing to see/realize, but you don't wanna get stuck there. One is able to remain at peace at this juncture, through adhering to 'witness mode,' and thereby postionally holding himself 'apart from' unwanted happenings/appearances that would otherwise hurt deeply.
This is what I am deeply confused. Something is happening out there which has the possibility to hurt you? Would you consider the same statement for your nightly dream as well? If not, why not? Witnessing someone being crucified in my lucid dream, in the moment it is happening, would affect me pretty much the same that it would in waking reality. AS I've shared previously, I do not know if my dream characters are actual experiencers/perceivers or not, thus, the sense that I am watching another experiencing pain and adversity, would still be there, much as it would be in waking reality. I have to say, even if somehow I knew for certain that the other appearing, was a mere figment, there would still be an element of unpleasantness in having to watch that.
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Post by Figgles on May 9, 2017 15:38:55 GMT
You don't have to remember or kind of sense is necessary for you to look like a witness. This is what I keep saying that direct seeing straighten the creation according to your newly realized truth, you don't have to remember anything. You must have misunderstood something I said there, I am not suggesting that remembering plays a part in coming full circle....3rd. position mountain. Yes..okay. Okay, so for you, if one feels any sense of aversion at all when a particular circumstance arises, he is not free..not in peace?
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 15:50:05 GMT
What do you mean by "witness that can be seen and accessed"? I don't understand here. How come witness can be seen? Witness is the seer, Witness is the awareness/consciousness. I see it more as 'witnessing happens,' but if we are identifying with/as 'witness,' that equals taking a step beyond unfettered Being into objectification, into conceputalizing and identifying. To say "I am THE WITNESS," in my estimation, is to create an object out of 'witnessing' itself. Identification is not a problem, who said Identification is the problem? Wrong identification is the problem because unfolding story sucks us there. You can't be without identification, You always identifies yourself to be a person or witness.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 15:54:13 GMT
This is what I am deeply confused. Something is happening out there which has the possibility to hurt you? Would you consider the same statement for your nightly dream as well? If not, why not? Witnessing someone being crucified in my lucid dream, in the moment it is happening, would affect me pretty much the same that it would in waking reality. AS I've shared previously, I do not know if my dream characters are actual experiencers/perceivers or not, thus, the sense that I am watching another experiencing pain and adversity, would still be there, much as it would be in waking reality. I have to say, even if somehow I knew for certain that the other appearing, was a mere figment, there would still be an element of unpleasantness in having to watch that. Oh you start to compare the dream now, that's not the point here, the point is unfolding story completely have the power to move you. You say you don't know how would feel when you witness the crucifixion because you have never seen it, you don't have to witness to know how that would feel. It's very obvious that you can't be in peace when unfolding story sucks. You say you can continue to witness no matter whatever happens infront of you, that's not true. Your realization has a direct connection with your movie. When you see through a particular illusion, your movie will be free of those illusion.
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