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Post by Figgles on May 7, 2019 18:13:28 GMT
In terms of the clash of viewpoints, what lies at the root of the "I do know" folks, is the assertion that those of us who say we don't/can't know have not yet realized 'true nature.'
The apprehension/realization of 'true nature' is being posited as distinct from the seeing through of person-hood. Which to me is absolutely ridiculous.
How could person-hood get seen through without 'true nature' being revealed? If that were to happen, then person-hood has not actually been seen through. There really is nothing else standing in the way, nothing else obscuring true nature other than the erroneous idea of SVP.
And this is where it becomes very obvious that the "I do know-ers" have conflated 'true nature' with property/attribute (the addition of knowledge) vs. a seeing through/loss, which lies at the root of all actual 'realization.'
The only way 'true nature' could somehow go unseen in the seeing through of self-hood would be if 'true nature' is an acquisition. It's not. 'True Nature' is what is abidingly there at all times, but is obscured by the erroneous identification as/with self-hood/person.
There is only one "thing" to see/apprehend in SR. "Self" is a pointer that encompasses "true nature." If it doesn't, then there is no SR. In the realization of Self, all that previously obscured 'Truth' falls away. True nature is not something other than "Self."
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Post by Figgles on May 8, 2019 15:26:27 GMT
If you were actually 'content to leave the matter be,' why the explanation below? This is a good example ZD of how you say things like: Let's agree to disagree, or let's leave it at that, etc, but then you clearly are not content to just 'leave it at that.' It really does seem as though you want to be able to say your bit, while silencing the other. I'd be telling you this on ST, not sure if you're aware or not, but I'm been banned...again. Now you've invoked all these terms (NS, SS, dai-kensho) when the original argument was simply; Can Oneness be realized without seeing through person-hood? The real question is; Has separation actually been seen through? Has Oneness actually been realized? That's how freedom from mind comes about....when the SVP is longer imagined to be driving the bus. And absent the seeing through of the separate person, there is not 'realization of Oneness.' The apprehension of Oneness = the seeing through of the SVP. So long as there is still an SVP at the wheel, imaginary as it may be, there is no freedom from mind, No 'realization of Oneness.'
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Post by Figgles on May 8, 2019 15:36:40 GMT
Being itself contains no such ideas about numbers, possibilities or anything else. The very idea of 'multiple' Beings is a venture into minding, which means, an arising TO/within Being...part and parcel of the realm of appearances.
Nothing that appears can be known about for certain...it's all devoid of Truth, and that includes all ideas/beliefs....'multiple beings' is just an idea conjured by mind.
Once you've seen that, you stop asking those kinds of questions. You now know the 'well' to be empty so you stop seeking to get water from it.
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Post by Figgles on May 8, 2019 15:38:27 GMT
Nailed it.
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Post by Figgles on May 8, 2019 15:57:08 GMT
But there is a vast difference between a temporary state of unity consciousness vs. an actual "realization" of Oneness. Realization is not a 'state' that comes and goes. States that come and go still have a person at their helm, even if it seems at the time as though the person temporarily took a hike.
States are not the equivalent of 'realization.' When you say that Oneness can be "realized," without seeing through person-hood you are conflating a state (which is temporary) with realization, which is a permanent loss/seeing through of what is NOT.
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Post by Figgles on May 8, 2019 16:03:50 GMT
I'm not disputing that CC/kenshos happen. They do.....I've had them and continue to have them. They're freakin' amazing...awe-inspiring. They are not though the equivalent of 'Realizing Oneness.' An experience of a state of Cosmic unity is not the same thing as seeing through separation/realizing Oneness.
All 'states' are of mind. Realization is beyond...a seeing through of what is not.
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Post by Figgles on May 8, 2019 16:12:41 GMT
I find it really sad and sick when one uses the difficult circumstances shared by another, to jab as Andrew is doing here. You're being an asshole. Andrew. (SomeNothing, I am very sorry for your loss and ensuing circumstances with your mom)
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Post by Figgles on May 8, 2019 16:14:03 GMT
Exactly.
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Post by Figgles on May 8, 2019 19:22:34 GMT
Particularly when your guru status might be in peril. You always choose to 'hold em' as soon as the other starts pointing out the fallacies in what you're saying.
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Post by Figgles on May 8, 2019 19:24:24 GMT
As would people who have a deep aversion to having their spiritual views challenged.
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