muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 4,394
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Post by muttley on May 9, 2019 15:48:43 GMT
I find it really sad and sick when one uses the difficult circumstances shared by another, to jab as Andrew is doing here. You're being an asshole. Andrew.  (SomeNothing, I am very sorry for your loss and ensuing circumstances with your mom) yes, I got irritated when I read his reply to someNothing. Even Laffy was unhappy about his writing. Yeah, my response to that was sort of knee-jerk. What Andy wrote to Kevin is a great example of how relationships can lead to insensitivity. We sometimes feel justified in being harsh with others because of how we perceive they've treated us in the past, even to the point of not recognizing the hardness of what we say as we're saying it. To my eye, this is an experience that everyone here has had, from both sides of the fence, so we can all learn from it if we're open.  .. and that's not to say that harshness is all "bad" all the time, either. Wow, what a hypocrite that would make me.  |
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Post by Figgles on May 9, 2019 17:49:59 GMT
If you were actually 'content to leave the matter be,' why the explanation below? This is a good example ZD of how you say things like: Let's agree to disagree, or let's leave it at that, etc, but then you clearly are not content to just 'leave it at that.' It really does seem as though you want to be able to say your bit, while silencing the other. I'd be telling you this on ST, not sure if you're aware or not, but I'm been banned...again.  Now you've invoked all these terms (NS, SS, dai-kensho) when the original argument was simply; Can Oneness be realized without seeing through person-hood? The real question is; Has separation actually been seen through? Has Oneness actually been realized? That's how freedom from mind comes about....when the SVP is longer imagined to be driving the bus. And absent the seeing through of the separate person, there is not 'realization of Oneness.' The apprehension of Oneness = the seeing through of the SVP. So long as there is still an SVP at the wheel, imaginary as it may be, there is no freedom from mind, No 'realization of Oneness.' You've been banned again?  Any particular reason, or is that too much to ask? I reported a bunch of Sharon's posts, explaining each time why and how they violated Reef's laid-out rules, (one of which was that if/when a post is deemed to be violating the rules, by all means, report it instead of just talking about it being in violation.) He also said that there had to be a history involved, rather than just one singular infraction and that's why I went back a bit into Sharon's postings and reported a whole bunch of em. Oh....And I also posted that what he thought was a giraffe on my part, (the one that led to my 1st banning) was not. He insists that he answered my question re: his flip-flopping view, but in actuality,he's never addressed the bit about him saying in the past that realizations are losses and defy description. My sense is the reporting Sharon bit is the excuse he's using just so he can avoid having to answer as to why/how his view about what constitutes a realization has changed so dramatically. What I find interesting about that is that his Kensho, which he was able to describe in great detail and whereby he supposedly 'realized' it's all One, was in 2013, but the posts I've found of him defining realization as 'a loss....indescribable...absent content...a seeing of what is not vs. a seeing of what is,' was AFTER he supposedly had that 'realizational' Kensho. Thus, I wonder at what point he changed his definition of 'realization' to include his Kensho. He would have had to in order to now be regarding it as a 'realization.' |
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Post by Figgles on May 9, 2019 17:51:01 GMT
I can't tell if he's talking to Tenka or Andy? It was Andy, (but would apply to Tenka equally as well.)  |
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Post by Figgles on May 9, 2019 17:57:31 GMT
But there is a vast difference between a temporary state of unity consciousness vs. an actual "realization" of Oneness. Realization is not a 'state' that comes and goes. States that come and go still have a person at their helm, even if it seems at the time as though the person temporarily took a hike. States are not the equivalent of 'realization.' When you say that Oneness can be "realized," without seeing through person-hood you are conflating a state (which is temporary) with realization, which is a permanent loss/seeing through of what is NOT. Clearly so. Apparently, what makes it possible to imagine being SR without seeing through person-hood is the idea of unity. The person, then, continues on as an entity that gets unified with everything else. (whatever that means in that context) There is no unification, and therefore no unity consciousness. Anyone who claims to have experienced unity consciousness has fallen for a story. Bingo with a big fat cherry on top. (Oh...and of course the Cherry is 'unified' with the Bingo.)  Yup. An experience of unity consciousness is just, as you say, a means of 'including' the person within a story about unification. The person remains, the objective world of objects remains, and it's all tied together with sparkly, vibrant ribbons of golden 'aliveness...realer than real-ness.' |
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Post by Figgles on May 9, 2019 18:05:01 GMT
Exactly 2. In the end, ZD's experiences mean nothing and are irrelevant. He can't claim that there are actual realizations associated with the experiences such as unity consciousness and knowing everything is alive, because those are false ideas.Yes. But just try calling him on those ideas being false and then suddenly he remembers how much he's said in the past about 'non-abidance in mind,' and then he suddenly starts frantically pointing again... "________________".....'the truth cannot be captured with words,' etc. etc. Bloody cornfusing.  |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969 
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Post by Enigma on May 10, 2019 2:15:23 GMT
Clearly so. Apparently, what makes it possible to imagine being SR without seeing through person-hood is the idea of unity. The person, then, continues on as an entity that gets unified with everything else. (whatever that means in that context) There is no unification, and therefore no unity consciousness. Anyone who claims to have experienced unity consciousness has fallen for a story. Bingo with a big fat cherry on top. (Oh...and of course the Cherry is 'unified' with the Bingo.) Yup. An experience of unity consciousness is just, as you say, a means of 'including' the person within a story about unification. The person remains, the objective world of objects remains, and it's all tied together with sparkly, vibrant ribbons of golden 'aliveness...realer than real-ness.' |
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Post by Figgles on May 10, 2019 2:19:32 GMT
Bingo with a big fat cherry on top. (Oh...and of course the Cherry is 'unified' with the Bingo.) Yup. An experience of unity consciousness is just, as you say, a means of 'including' the person within a story about unification. The person remains, the objective world of objects remains, and it's all tied together with sparkly, vibrant ribbons of golden 'aliveness...realer than real-ness.' |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on May 10, 2019 2:22:47 GMT
Exactly 2. In the end, ZD's experiences mean nothing and are irrelevant. He can't claim that there are actual realizations associated with the experiences such as unity consciousness and knowing everything is alive, because those are false ideas.Yes. But just try calling him on those ideas being false and then suddenly he remembers how much he's said in the past about 'non-abidance in mind,' and then he suddenly starts frantically pointing again... "________________".....'the truth cannot be captured with words,' etc. etc. Bloody cornfusing. I tip-toed around those egos thinking it would buy me a little more time. Perhaps it did, but I'm done tip-toing now.  |
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 4,394
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Post by muttley on May 10, 2019 4:03:13 GMT
Yes. But just try calling him on those ideas being false and then suddenly he remembers how much he's said in the past about 'non-abidance in mind,' and then he suddenly starts frantically pointing again... "________________".....'the truth cannot be captured with words,' etc. etc. Bloody cornfusing. I tip-toed around those egos thinking it would buy me a little more time. Perhaps it did, but I'm done tip-toing now. well, whatever happens, your dialogs with andy and tenka really have nowhere to go, and I don't mean any acrimony in that, nor do I mean to belittle either of them. You've done your best, sir. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on May 10, 2019 5:44:45 GMT
I tip-toed around those egos thinking it would buy me a little more time. Perhaps it did, but I'm done tip-toing now. well, whatever happens, your dialogs with andy and tenka really have nowhere to go, and I don't mean any acrimony in that, nor do I mean to belittle either of them. You've done your best, sir. There's no way to overcome the force of their divine stamping. |
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.. and that's not to say that harshness is all "bad" all the time, either. Wow, what a hypocrite that would make me. 
Any particular reason, or is that too much to ask?
