Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Nov 8, 2024 8:04:10 GMT
The experience of suffering does indeed have chasing...seeking....grasping inherent to it....but also part and parcel of that, is an erroneously imagined separate, volitional person....along with the sense/belief that it needs/must have certain manifestations in order to be okay....not suffer. The way experience seems to unfold on a time-line...in sequential manner, supports mind in dissecting it all up...chopping it into pieces to designate one thing as 'causal/creative' to another....but when you really realize (& I think you have) the "one singular movement" it's clear that what previously seemed to be a causal chain of events, conditions, ideas, senses, is actually one seamless "happening/manifestation." I feel like that’s the same thing. An idea of a separate person seeking something (manifestations) to become whole.
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Nov 8, 2024 8:15:36 GMT
The awakened perspective reveals that apparent conditions that are judged to be "positive/good" are not necessary for feelings of peace, joy, happiness to arise. There can be contentment with life, and yes, even joyful happiness in the face of conditions that the me character may judge to be "disliked/negative." LOA/deliberate creation asserts the erroneous idea that a joyful state of being cannot co-arise with apparent conditions that are judged to be imperfect/not liked, by mind...that 'like always attracts like.' A nice/good feeling = a nice/good condition. A bad/negative feeling = a bad/negative manifest condition. LOA says that where there is a joyful state, there will always be apparent conditions that are "liked" by mind, and it's very easy to see, while they may not be the norm, there are still indeed folks who remain peaceful and contented despite conditions others deem to be intolerable. It's only when there is identification with a separate someone/entity that state of being is inextricably linked to apparent conditions. It's a great example of mind driving the vehicle. When mind is no longer in the driver's seat, fundamental perfection reigns supreme over surface, apparent judgments and that means judgments only extend surface deep. That has a direct impact upon experiential feeling states. It means they only extend surface deep and ebb/flow freely, without stickiness. Yes. My experience is of divine perfection. Is it true that anything ‘bad’ can really happen?
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Post by Gopal on Nov 8, 2024 8:16:58 GMT
The experience of suffering does indeed have chasing...seeking....grasping inherent to it....but also part and parcel of that, is an erroneously imagined separate, volitional person....along with the sense/belief that it needs/must have certain manifestations in order to be okay....not suffer. The way experience seems to unfold on a time-line...in sequential manner, supports mind in dissecting it all up...chopping it into pieces to designate one thing as 'causal/creative' to another....but when you really realize (& I think you have) the "one singular movement" it's clear that what previously seemed to be a causal chain of events, conditions, ideas, senses, is actually one seamless "happening/manifestation." I feel like that’s the same thing. An idea of a separate person seeking something (manifestations) to become whole. But it's not easy to stop this chasing. But chasing the primary cause of suffering.
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Esponja
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Posts: 1,742
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Post by Esponja on Nov 8, 2024 8:28:40 GMT
I feel like that’s the same thing. An idea of a separate person seeking something (manifestations) to become whole. But it's not easy to stop this chasing. But chasing the primary cause of suffering. Hello Gopal, Forgive me as I haven’t read through many pages yet. Are you trying to see through the illusion of me? If so, are you able to see : That ‘But it's not easy to stop’ is just a believed in thought?
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Nov 8, 2024 10:20:22 GMT
While experientially speaking, there's nothing wrong with engaging with ideas/experiences of 'this causes that,' it's important to see all experiential content for what it is--empty of Truth. This is why any undue focus spent upon trying to figure out 'why' certain people live to a ripe 'ol age and don't visibly show signs of bodily aging to the degree that others do, or why this or that condition happens to some, but not others, is ultimately, a fool's errand....a venture into delusion. The idea that being in a state where thoughts/ideas/feelings align with wholeness/Source, always and reliably 'results' in particular/specific manifestations, assumes firstly, an objective 'goodness/badness value' regarding appearing conditions and also assumes cause/effect. In clarity, both of these ideas get seen through. & really, All it takes to blow apart the 'law' assertion inherent in the claim that a light/happy attitude is responsible for those who live to be 100 and remain in good health, is one miserable 100 yr old, who looks good and is relatively healthy. It's understandable that folks might be interested in figuring out why certain conditions they deem to be positive happen to certain folks and not others, but really, looking for 'cause' of anything that happens within the dream, is misguided. That said, playing around with the correlation between focus, feelings, desires and manifestations can at times be fun. (and yes, Laughter, I'll beat you to the punch; you will very likely be able to find something I've said two years ago or previous to that, that diverges somewhat from what I'm saying here). I pretty much agree, but I thought we could explore this a little further. As I see it and have talked about it, experience doesn't contain any transcendent truth, but it does contain 'truths' about the dream itself, hence the corellation you talk about. For example, the laws of science do operate with almost 100% predictability. In this light, I got caught up at the idea of 'playing around with correlation for fun'. Perhaps one who has awakened to the truth of his being beyond physicality and has little concern for how the dream unfolds could accurately be said to be playing around, but in the context of the average LOA student (for example) the interest is really in improving quality of life, and those correlations can become hugely important to that end. FWIW, I'm not down with a positive attitude being the cause of anything even in the physical context. As a correlation, it can just as easily be a good life that leads to a good attitude rather than the reverse. I am, however, in agreement with the notion of alignment with the force of creation (assuming LOA actually teaches something similar to that), though this alignment is the result of a change of being rather than a change in something that is done (i.e. having a positive attitude). Haha right to the start, and my birthday… I wanted to resurrect this with fresh new eyes now. It appears to be a reflection. Everyone is turning up in more ‘love’ in my life. It gets murkey though, because does this mean if you encounter anyone narcissistic or angry that it’s your conditioning to dissolve?
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Post by Figgles on Nov 8, 2024 17:39:20 GMT
A clear case of seeking for a particular feeling state vs. being accepting and open/allowing of ALL feeling states, which is an absence and what's necessary for realized, unconditional peace. To be aware of feelings is not bad or wrong. They do indicate what's happening in mind. To be consciously aware of feeling state and how that corresponds with thoughts/ideation is all good if one's intent is to become relatively 'clearer,' but if that turns into an intent to attain a near-constant, 'good/nice' feeling-state, that is something else entirely. Feelings/senses are part and parcel of the phenomenal, which means they are not 'actually/fundamentally' causal or creative to any other content. Feelings fall under the umbrella of appearance only...dream-content, and as such, identification with them/strong focus upon them in an effort to control the feeling state, serves to anchor an imagined SVP within the dream. Such a focus, whereby a particular feeling state is being sought after, essentially, subverts unconditional peace for conditional peace/positive feelings. Unconditional peace requires an absence of seeking for a particular feeling state. When there's no longer anyone in the pic who 'needs' for his feeling state to be a certain way, the way is clear for a deep and abiding contentment that is not dependent upon any condition other than the absence of the seeker/seeking. Again here, we're talking the difference in terms of focus re: Nonduality vs. self-help/LOA/deliberate creation. Nonduality is all about accepting/allowing ALL feeling states and LOA/deliberate creation is about trying to control feeling states and all for the purpose of trying to control how the story unfolds. OK, will try to jump in.. So much to read. As always, you are so eloquent. Very kind of you.... Yeah, it's a label we give to a particular, specific kind of experiential content. From the vantage point of clearly seeing the distinction between that which abides, unchanging, vs. that which is appearance only, those smaller distinctions/labels that mind applies, really don't matter....it's ALL ephemeral, ALL temporal, ALL empty and devoid of inherent existence in it's own right...it depends upon that which abides for it's temporal arising/appearance. The only place is DOES matter, is in distinguishing those appearances that DO appear from those that actually don't appear and are instead, erroneously imagined. That's what the term "illusion/delusion/false" is speaking to. A separate me doesn't really appear....it's imagined. Separation does not really appear....it's always only imagined. Yes, it's mind that slaps those personal judgment based labels upon a particular feeling state. The person 'likes' certain feelings more than others....it's built into the personal experience to likes/dislikes/resists certain conditions, which really is not a problem at all, until and unless there's a separate person imagined into the mix. It's that separate person idea that heaps an overlay of fundamental judgment upon an arising feeling of discord/resistance, to say it 'should not' be arising and that it needs to be controlled by the person. That term "real" often presents a problem in these conversations, which I why I tend not to use it. An appearance IS really appearing, but it's absent inherent existence. Only abiding Awareness as ground "exists" in it's own right. So in that sense, I get why some say that appearing things, thoughts, feelings are not 'real,' but Awareness IS. I think sometimes the "not real" label gets used to deny and sort of denigrade experience....as though not being real/not having inherent existence somehow means we should personally cease to care about it at all. It's true, awakening does lessen the depth of 'concern' that mind applies to unwanted/dis-liked conditions, but it does not completely dissolve ALL caring...all concern. Those who insist it does are as I see it, 'brown-bearing it.'
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Post by Figgles on Nov 8, 2024 17:43:31 GMT
What she means by that is "when we want to find alignment, therefore, be in a position to create/control outcomes that conform with need-based desires." That's really NOT a position of empowerment at all (intending/needing to control outcomes)...it's one of bondage. To be in a place where you truly believe that life must conform with all your material wants and preferences....your mind-derived idea of "how" life should be, that is anything but a position of empowerment. True empowerment comes of an absence....true personal empowerment rides on the absence of needing for anything specific to manifest in order to be deeply and continuously contended with life. There is some wisdom in this. A focus upon interest itself, the pleasure that comes with a strong, pure interest that is unfettered from an SVP's need-based ideas about what is needed, really is about as sublime as it gets. That sense of motion forward...looking forward as interest dovetails into intent, excitement and inspired action... That's where the true gold lies....look AT the interst/intent....preference...want itself. Really dig in....what is it you 'actually' are interested in? So often what we think we desire/need, is really just a means to a deeper interest. And to add to this, that interest doesn’t have to be what mind would call ‘purposeful’. If the interest is to sit and watch tik tok all day it doesn’t matter and is seen as no different to starting up a charity organisation. Same same. Yes, really good point! It's also mind that judges some activities as constructive & others as not and that upholds a particular value that says a human life is not worthwhile unless there are accomplishments made and specific goals achieved. I personally DO enjoy the experience of a particular intent coming to fruition, but it's easy for folks to get caught up in that idea that idle time spent doing something enjoyable just for the sake of that present enjoyment, is somehow not worthy...or a 'waste' of time.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 8, 2024 17:55:53 GMT
This quote speaks directly to the idea of deliberate creation/LOA....the ultimately, erroneous idea that as a person, you can control your thoughts/feelings to thereby control outcomes that conform with personal desires. LOA/deliberate creation and Nonduality are plain and simply not compatible. SR reveals the delusions inherent to a belief in LOA/deliberate creation. Perfectly put. The very interest itself in controlling outcomes via controlling thought/feeling/focus is an indication that 'liberation is not for you.' When such an interest is present, it's clear, there is an SVP in the driver's seat and indeed, liberation is not for the SVP....in liberation, the SVP dissolves. Agree. In saying that, I often find it can be fun to engage with a bit of imagination but with no attachment to results. Yeah, I'd say imagining outcomes is pretty much built into the whole experiential unfolding of an arising intent, intuitive movement/action towards the fulfillment of that intent and the unfolding itself towards that fruition. As you allude to, it's only when there's attachment to a particular result that it becomes problematic. I think whenever there's a bit of stickiness that crops up re: a particular intention, it's always a good thing to drill down into what the highest interest is there. Often in that, there's a loosening up around some of extranneous stuff one thinks must become manifest in order for the intent to be fulfilled. That question; What do I 'really' want?...a good one in those cases. It's often the case that a bunch of erroneous 'shoulds' have entered in and once those are seen for what they are, it becomes clear the intent is actually already showing evidence of coming into fruition.
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Nov 8, 2024 20:32:19 GMT
OK, will try to jump in.. So much to read. As always, you are so eloquent. Very kind of you.... Yeah, it's a label we give to a particular, specific kind of experiential content. From the vantage point of clearly seeing the distinction between that which abides, unchanging, vs. that which is appearance only, those smaller distinctions/labels that mind applies, really don't matter....it's ALL ephemeral, ALL temporal, ALL empty and devoid of inherent existence in it's own right...it depends upon that which abides for it's temporal arising/appearance. The only place is DOES matter, is in distinguishing those appearances that DO appear from those that actually don't appear and are instead, erroneously imagined. That's what the term "illusion/delusion/false" is speaking to. A separate me doesn't really appear....it's imagined. Separation does not really appear....it's always only imagined. Yes, it's mind that slaps those personal judgment based labels upon a particular feeling state. The person 'likes' certain feelings more than others....it's built into the personal experience to likes/dislikes/resists certain conditions, which really is not a problem at all, until and unless there's a separate person imagined into the mix. It's that separate person idea that heaps an overlay of fundamental judgment upon an arising feeling of discord/resistance, to say it 'should not' be arising and that it needs to be controlled by the person. That term "real" often presents a problem in these conversations, which I why I tend not to use it. An appearance IS really appearing, but it's absent inherent existence. Only abiding Awareness as ground "exists" in it's own right. So in that sense, I get why some say that appearing things, thoughts, feelings are not 'real,' but Awareness IS. I think sometimes the "not real" label gets used to deny and sort of denigrade experience....as though not being real/not having inherent existence somehow means we should personally cease to care about it at all. It's true, awakening does lessen the depth of 'concern' that mind applies to unwanted/dis-liked conditions, but it does not completely dissolve ALL caring...all concern. Those who insist it does are as I see it, 'brown-bearing it.' Ah OK understood. I can see the confusion for a seeker in using that word for sure. Even not real or real is making little sense to me these days tbh. My experience thus far, which seems to be unfolding (in the story) is that I don’t stay in any particular state for too long, compared to previously when there was a worry/concern that would take over thoughts and feelings for a while. Often times, I care even more deeply. There’s no worry though. My capacity to care and love is greater than ever.
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Nov 9, 2024 2:45:55 GMT
I pretty much agree, but I thought we could explore this a little further. As I see it and have talked about it, experience doesn't contain any transcendent truth, but it does contain 'truths' about the dream itself, hence the corellation you talk about. For example, the laws of science do operate with almost 100% predictability. Yup. Yes, agreed. If the focus upon LOA is indeed just a sort of 'playing around,' that in itself would indicate non-attachment to outcome...it's only those who depend upon particular manifestations for peace to be/who are deluded, who take it for anything more than 'play...engagement with a particular idea/experience.' Me neither. And in saying that, I do admit, that diverges from what I've said in the past about such. Positive attitude, feelings, thoughts, manifestation, all of 'em, dream stuff...no one actually causing the other. And when it's seen there really is no doer, each of those arisings, are part of an unbroken circle. It's all one movement...we could as much be correct in saying that the manifestation was sensed/known and thus, led to the positive feelings/expectations about it's unfolding as we could say the positive feelings led to the unfolding. But, Neither would be Truth. Exactly. Bingo! You can't "Do" your way to "actual" alignment. Haha full circle ❤️
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