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Post by Figgles on Jun 5, 2024 4:13:16 GMT
Perfect examples that debunk LOA/deliberate creation theory. And really, isn't it those kind of those instances that get mind asking that question of "why" in the first place? Absent happenings that are personally judged to be "wrong/bad/horrific," the question of "why does experience unfold as it does," wouldn't arise. The very question has inherent to it, a judgment of bad/wrong, along with the sentiment of fear and an intent towards avoidance. Yes, those instances very clearly defy LOA theory. And if we're talking an actual, inviolable, dictating "law" of creation, a few instances like that, that defy it, is all it takes to debunk it's existence. Well put.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 5, 2024 4:26:20 GMT
Oh, but it's fine to fall into the trap of asserting an inviolable, existent "law" that clearly is not really a "law" at all...? Nature is rife with all sorts of grizzly happenings....do you really think "most" wild animals just curl up an drift off into physical death? You've very naive if you believe that. And lets say those circumstances Hamburger detailed were truly "anomalies,".....what does that say about this supposed "inviolable/dictating law"? It's not much of a "law" is it, if there's all sorts of instances whereby it is defied. Notice how this absence of fear relative to animals, their supposed "acceptance" of the inevitable, has you personally judging their rough/violent deaths less harshly? ...that same acceptance can apply to humans as well, when there is clarity. And guess what that means? (No interest in trying to control outcomes....no fear based/separation-based/need-based desires to control outcomes.) Such comparisons and apparently observed similarities are in the eyes of the beholder...much the same way judgments of good/bad that get assigned to particular appearing facets of the story, are. Lame.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 5, 2024 4:33:49 GMT
He's not doing that. How the heck did you even arrive at that? He's citing specific instances, happenings within experience, that clearly and obviously defy your asserted, inviolable "law." Bingo! Very, very well said.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 5, 2024 18:27:21 GMT
If there is nothing operating "outside of" the whole, then that means there are no existent entities/deliberate creators.
The idea of "extensions of Source" is a way the SDP tries to have it's cake and eat it too. The idea is that by virtue of being "an extension" of Source, the person has the "properties/qualities" of Source, and as such, can be a causative/catalyzing force in the world, creating according to it's personal whims.
It's a nonsense idea that erroneously mixes and confuses contexts and essentially adds legs to snake.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 5, 2024 18:34:24 GMT
In Nonduality as well. I wouldn't so much though say that Nonduality considers erroneous bad per se, so much as "delusional/false."
Nondual pointers have realization (seeing from beyond/prior to mind/conceptual) inherent to them. LOA is entirely a mind-derived idea..a concept that is arrived at via a process of observation and then leaping to an assumptive conclusion.
True pointers point to beyond all conceptual graspings and mind contrivances.
The view from beyond/prior to leaves zero room for the question of "how/why" stuff happens as it does. That view illuminates the truth--the non-conceptual seeing that it's all one, singular, undivided, inclusive movement...essentially, a singular expression. Nothing within it lying causal to anything to else.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 5, 2024 21:58:41 GMT
So ZD, with all that said, what do you make of the insistence by Reefs that the "individual organism" can be "mis-aligned" with Source?
If as you say everything that appears, including the human, IS "Source"....then how the heck is it even possible to "BE" out of alignment with Source?
I'm asking because as far as I can recall, amidst the myriad posts where Reefs insists that a human can either be "in" alignment with Source or somehow fail to be aligned, I don't recall you speaking up to correct her or comment directly upon that idea.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 8, 2024 4:45:24 GMT
LOA'ers, are seeking for specific conditions that they believe will make them feel happy/good. The very belief that a "good/nice/positive" feeling state creates/causes/attracts their desired conditions to manifest, is essentially a false idea that is fuelled and propped up by the need itself for conditions to be a particular way in order for them to feel okay.
The seeker very much wants it to be true that feeling state causes material conditions to manifest because that means there is hope that he can control the way the story unfolds. He needs for certain experiential conditions to be manifest, because his sense of contentment..peace.....feeling okay, is dependent upon that.
From that position of wanting/needing, deeply searching and desiring to find a means of controlling story content, the seekers mind gloms onto the idea of LOA life a life-line. The patterns and correlations inherent to the apparent, unfolding story that can be observed are misconstrued for one thing lying causal/creative to another.
In reality, nothing that appears in the story is actually causing/creating anything else. It's all one singular expression. But, to the seeker who needs for life to be a particular way, that false idea is everything and will be defended valiantly to protect the sense of being an entity that has it's hands in the clay, able to move and manipulate life as I see fit.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 8, 2024 5:10:48 GMT
Nonduality's "non-doing" is a far cry from A-H's "allowing." The former is a realization....an absence of a doer in the mix. Whereas A-H's "allowing" is the prescribed adoption of a state of conceptual acceptance....a trying to be okay with things, not for the fruits of imminent, relative peace inherent in that, but rather, for the purpose of manifesting your desired stuff.
That's what makes LOA such a farce.....ideas inherent to Nonduality are brought in, but always for the purpose of creating an experience that conforms with my separation based, limitation-based ideas about how life should be/needs to be, in order for me to feel okay.
Nonduality and even many other self-help teachings, instead, focus on being contented....free, absent the need for life to conform to personal ideas of how is should be.
What need is there for a "universal manager" if life is already unfolding in fundamental perfection? You're gilding the lily. Adding legs to snakes. "State of being," is itself, an appearance....a manifest condition. As such, it moves and changes, just like all temporally appearance does. You speak of it as though it is something unchanging...stagnant....existent! It's not. Which means, it has no creative/causal power.
Why is it you don't assert the manifest condition as "casual/creative to" the feeling state that preceded it? Might sound like a dumb question, but if you've truly seen through time/space, you should be able to pick up my drift.
It's still an inaccurate view of reality, but it brings mind closer I think to a conceptual grasp of "no causation within the dream" to say that it's equally as true (also untrue, fwiw!) as the idea that the feeling state that precedes a particular manifest condition down the time-line from that, "caused/created" it.
Saying it's fine and truly feeling fine about it, is not "happy-face-stickering," (even if there is an absence of belief in present state of being, as an inviolable dictator of future manifest conditions.)
Katies process is not just about saying it's all fine, it's about seeing/knowing it's fine. There is a difference.
On the other hand, You are merely imagining this supposed iron-clad law that you believe inviolably dictates what's next in the story. There are indeed times where a particular state of being and subsequent manifestation can be categorized by mind as being "alike" but there are also plenty of times where they'll be deemed "different."
The very ascertaining of "alike" hinges upon mind's categorizations and judgments.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 8, 2024 18:46:20 GMT
An astute comment Hamburger.
In self-help, new age spiritual circles, there's nothing quite like that label of "channeled material" that garners a respect above all other type of spiritual teachings.
It really does elevate the teaching to a sort of religion because the person supposedly serving as "the channel" cannot be taken to task for any contradictions or nonsense within the channeled message....it came from 'beyond' after all and they are merely the messenger conveying the message. It's the perfect set-up when you think of it!
And yes, becoming quiet and simply "journaling" can indeed support the very same kind of "insight reception" that gets that label slapped on it, of "channeled."
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Post by Figgles on Jun 9, 2024 18:47:04 GMT
All fine and good to acknowledge that relatively speaking, it can be observed that shifts in mind often correlate with shifts in body condition. But quite another thing to insist upon an existent, fundamental, inviolable, dictating law surrounding that. Wake up and previous certain knowing of such inviolable, causative laws gets dissolved. If we're talking Truth, then what we're left with is are observable patterns and correlations only. There's now an absence of Absolute, certain knowing of causative/creation, where mind is posited as creative/causal to bodily condition. You keep ignoring Reef's erroneous assertions about having an answer to the existential question of 'how/why.' I wonder why that is..?
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