Enigma
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Posts: 13,969 
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Post by Enigma on Mar 15, 2018 0:35:30 GMT
It's very clearly said. It seems to me lots of peeps don't get that. Whenever I mention it there's a deafening silence, and I get the impression that the idea is being applied to what we call the ineffable and that it has nothing to do with our ideas about the world. What's your impression? Yeah....that's what I'm seeing too. And it's strange, because some of the folks who used to really get on board with the whole "SR is a loss, not a gain" dealy, now seem to be gushing all over the importance of gaining certain, very specific experiential knowledge...I don't get it. It's rare I think to see someone who is SR, go 'backwards,' but that's what seems to be happening. & Fwiw, I myself was one of those who argued against that, (with those very folks who now seem to have gone backwards!). ....As I've said, while I have been aware that my perspective has shifted slightly in the past while, I've been having trouble pin-pointing exactly how or where, but am seeing right now, for one, it is specifically re: this issue.......while gaining an improved experience may still hold value, I mean, what's not to like about an enjoyable dream, it is NOT SR....and if it's truly SR one is interested in, experiential knowings don't merely take a back seat....they need to be seen through completely...not just some of them...ALL of them, regardless of how 'special or transcendent' they may seem to be. There is no experiential knowledge that is going to set you free....in fact, it is experiential knowledge that obscures and obstructs freedom. I think in the past I was mistakingly seeing a sort of bridge that existed between experience and Truth realization....that the very interest in a better/improved experience, (if one could attain a sense that that had actually happened), would then sort of naturally 'launch' him into SR...but what I'm seeing now is that the very sense that one has succeeded in bettering his experience is more than likely to further anchor him within the dream....whereas, SR is about waking up from the dream. Becoming more comfy within the dream-scape gives one little reason or interest to see beyond it. What I'm hearing from folks is that CC is such a special experience that it doesn't really qualify as an experience.  |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 15, 2018 3:18:47 GMT
Yeah....that's what I'm seeing too. And it's strange, because some of the folks who used to really get on board with the whole "SR is a loss, not a gain" dealy, now seem to be gushing all over the importance of gaining certain, very specific experiential knowledge...I don't get it. It's rare I think to see someone who is SR, go 'backwards,' but that's what seems to be happening. & Fwiw, I myself was one of those who argued against that, (with those very folks who now seem to have gone backwards!). ....As I've said, while I have been aware that my perspective has shifted slightly in the past while, I've been having trouble pin-pointing exactly how or where, but am seeing right now, for one, it is specifically re: this issue.......while gaining an improved experience may still hold value, I mean, what's not to like about an enjoyable dream, it is NOT SR....and if it's truly SR one is interested in, experiential knowings don't merely take a back seat....they need to be seen through completely...not just some of them...ALL of them, regardless of how 'special or transcendent' they may seem to be. There is no experiential knowledge that is going to set you free....in fact, it is experiential knowledge that obscures and obstructs freedom. I think in the past I was mistakingly seeing a sort of bridge that existed between experience and Truth realization....that the very interest in a better/improved experience, (if one could attain a sense that that had actually happened), would then sort of naturally 'launch' him into SR...but what I'm seeing now is that the very sense that one has succeeded in bettering his experience is more than likely to further anchor him within the dream....whereas, SR is about waking up from the dream. Becoming more comfy within the dream-scape gives one little reason or interest to see beyond it. What I'm hearing from folks is that CC is such a special experience that it doesn't really qualify as an experience. Yeah...me too. I am having trouble therefore, seeing how it is different in any important way from what we are calling "realization." That acronym "DWAD" comes to mind here....  |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Mar 15, 2018 3:58:14 GMT
What I'm hearing from folks is that CC is such a special experience that it doesn't really qualify as an experience. Yeah...me too. I am having trouble therefore, seeing how it is different in any important way from what we are calling "realization." That acronym "DWAD" comes to mind here.... My sense is that powerful spiritual experiences are the conveyance of the ineffable on a feeling level. If this is so, then a movement of mind on that experience in any direction is the wrong direction. IOW, nothing that mind can grasp as ultimately true is being conveyed. Is that possible? |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 15, 2018 15:17:44 GMT
Yeah...me too. I am having trouble therefore, seeing how it is different in any important way from what we are calling "realization." That acronym "DWAD" comes to mind here.... My sense is that powerful spiritual experiences are the conveyance of the ineffable on a feeling level. If this is so, then a movement of mind on that experience in any direction is the wrong direction. IOW, nothing that mind can grasp as ultimately true is being conveyed. Is that possible? Yeah, absolutely! So instead of coming out of a profound 'spiritual experience' thinking you now know something 'about' experience, about that which appears, if one is heading in the right direction, staying clear, he will come away clearly seeing that as profound as that experience might have been, it was just mind trying to make sense of, process, 'the ineffable....that which mind cannot grasp' After all, trying to make sense of stuff, that's just what mind does. While I don't buy into ideas such as 'tests' or 'stamps' or that kind of thing, you can look at such experiences as a sort of 'litmus test'......question being; Do you get bamboozled by the captivating nature and compelling appearances inherent in a mind blowing, spiritual experience, and start heading in the wrong direction, (back into the dream) or do you remain grounded in Truth? |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 15, 2018 18:13:23 GMT
Don't get hung up on the labels (personal/impresonal).
Consciousness that is conscious = I am/awareness, I am/existence. You don't have conscious consciousness without 'being aware.'
Nope. Only the deluded say that. That's the part that is unknown. It does appear that 'some' expressions are indeed experiencing and conscious/aware of self, but that's just an appearance.
The moment some-thing 'is conscious' that means there is 'awareness of.'
Consciousness is not 'a quality.' Rather, it denotes the thingless thing/substrate that gives rise to, and is inseparable from everything....synonymous with God.....Source....All that is.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 15, 2018 18:16:14 GMT
To speak of "quality" is to determine that the context is material. Prior to mind, prior to expression, no 'quality.'
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Mar 15, 2018 22:48:34 GMT
My sense is that powerful spiritual experiences are the conveyance of the ineffable on a feeling level. If this is so, then a movement of mind on that experience in any direction is the wrong direction. IOW, nothing that mind can grasp as ultimately true is being conveyed. Is that possible? Yeah, absolutely! So instead of coming out of a profound 'spiritual experience' thinking you now know something 'about' experience, about that which appears, if one is heading in the right direction, staying clear, he will come away clearly seeing that as profound as that experience might have been, it was just mind trying to make sense of, process, 'the ineffable....that which mind cannot grasp' After all, trying to make sense of stuff, that's just what mind does. While I don't buy into ideas such as 'tests' or 'stamps' or that kind of thing, you can look at such experiences as a sort of 'litmus test'......question being; Do you get bamboozled by the captivating nature and compelling appearances inherent in a mind blowing, spiritual experience, and start heading in the wrong direction, (back into the dream) or do you remain grounded in Truth? Sounds right to me. I guess the question is, is it possible to experience something true, or does that always take the form of a non-conceptual realization? I say the answer is it's not possible. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Mar 15, 2018 22:56:24 GMT
Don't get hung up on the labels (personal/impresonal). Consciousness that is conscious = I am/awareness, I am/existence. You don't have conscious consciousness without 'being aware.' Nope. Only the deluded say that. That's the part that is unknown. It does appear that 'some' expressions are indeed experiencing and conscious/aware of self, but that's just an appearance. The moment some-thing 'is conscious' that means there is 'awareness of.' Consciousness is not 'a quality.' Rather, it denotes the thingless thing/substrate that gives rise to, and is inseparable from everything....synonymous with God.....Source....All that is.
Precisely. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Mar 15, 2018 23:02:19 GMT
To speak of "quality" is to determine that the context is material. Prior to mind, prior to expression, no 'quality.' Right, no quality. And while there are different ways that knowing can come about, it always involves the individuated mind, and therefore cannot be prior to mind. |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 16, 2018 4:30:29 GMT
Yeah, absolutely! So instead of coming out of a profound 'spiritual experience' thinking you now know something 'about' experience, about that which appears, if one is heading in the right direction, staying clear, he will come away clearly seeing that as profound as that experience might have been, it was just mind trying to make sense of, process, 'the ineffable....that which mind cannot grasp' After all, trying to make sense of stuff, that's just what mind does. While I don't buy into ideas such as 'tests' or 'stamps' or that kind of thing, you can look at such experiences as a sort of 'litmus test'......question being; Do you get bamboozled by the captivating nature and compelling appearances inherent in a mind blowing, spiritual experience, and start heading in the wrong direction, (back into the dream) or do you remain grounded in Truth? Sounds right to me. I guess the question is, is it possible to experience something true, or does that always take the form of a non-conceptual realization? I say the answer is it's not possible. Yup. Me too. If it's experienced, it's by the very fact of being so, not Truth. All Truth is non-conceputual. |
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