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Post by Figgles on Aug 2, 2022 17:30:00 GMT
That's not actually what is being said. Not here anyway. There is though a difference between "important" in terms of making for a richer/better overall life experience vs. important in terms of waking up/SR.
If an event can be described...if it has a beginning and end, then by virtue of that, we say it's "time-bound," thus, "an experience." There is plain and simply no getting around that. The content of an experience/event does not equal "realization." Realization is always a lightening of the load of knowledge, NOT an adding to it. If you come away with added knowledge and no subtraction/seeing through of knowledge, that then, does not constitute a realization.
It is true that the negation/seeing through of realization does then inform mind/experience, thus, it's accurate to say that experience is impacted...that means there is 'an addition of something new known' as the non-conceptual seeing is conceptualized by mind's grasp, but it's important not to conflate mind's grasp of the 'negation/seeing through/absence,' with 'realization.'
What CC/Kensho (all mystical experiences are) is mind's attempt to put a non-conceptual seeing through into a form that it can digest/make sense of.
What Adya is saying there in the bolded, is a testament to the "importance" of Kensho/CC in terms of improvement of the dream-scape, but he is crystal clear in what he says previous to that.
It is precisely because I DO have reference for Kensho/CC as well as what is referenced by "non-conceptual realization/seeing through," that I can speak to the important difference between the two. I'm guessing too that Adyashanti is also speaking from direct knowing/experience of both when he makes the distinction he does in that quote above.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 2, 2022 20:03:27 GMT
You are selling a relative freedom only ZD. In the absence of true awakening to the Truth...to seeing from beyond/prior to the dream in it's entirety, having a better dream is nothing to sneeze at. However, having a better dream is something entirely different than actually being liberated from the dream. You clearly have no idea, no reference for the actuality of that.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 2, 2022 20:06:51 GMT
It is only when completely liberated from the dream and all it's facets that "I am all of it," can be said and not mean; "I am limited/bound in/as a some-thing."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2022 0:16:36 GMT
That's not actually what is being said. Not here anyway. There is though a difference between "important" in terms of making for a richer/better overall life experience vs. important in terms of waking up/SR. If an event can be described...if it has a beginning and end, then by virtue of that, we say it's "time-bound," thus, "an experience." There is plain and simply no getting around that. The content of an experience/event does not equal "realization." Realization is always a lightening of the load of knowledge, NOT an adding to it. If you come away with added knowledge and no subtraction/seeing through of knowledge, that then, does not constitute a realization. It is true that the negation/seeing through of realization does then inform mind/experience, thus, it's accurate to say that experience is impacted...that means there is 'an addition of something new known' as the non-conceptual seeing is conceptualized by mind's grasp, but it's important not to conflate mind's grasp of the 'negation/seeing through/absence,' with 'realization.' What CC/Kensho (all mystical experiences are) is mind's attempt to put a non-conceptual seeing through into a form that it can digest/make sense of. What Adya is saying there in the bolded, is a testament to the "importance" of Kensho/CC in terms of improvement of the dream-scape, but he is crystal clear in what he says previous to that. It is precisely because I DO have reference for Kensho/CC as well as what is referenced by "non-conceptual realization/seeing through," that I can speak to the important difference between the two. I'm guessing too that Adyashanti is also speaking from direct knowing/experience of both when he makes the distinction he does in that quote above. I just stole your Adyshanti quote and posted it in my reply to ZD š |
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Post by Figgles on Aug 3, 2022 18:57:00 GMT
Yes! Beautifully put!
So considering that, do you now see why it is that E said post SR, "blameful" anger ceases? How can you assign fundamental blame to someone whom you know is not fundamentally at fault?
How can you 'fight with reality,' to the degree that you'd assign fundamental wrongness/badness and express anger towards the one deemed to be deeply 'wrong/bad.'?
For a deep feeling of emotional discord to arise, so much so that you find yourself angrily assigning blame to another, as though they actually could have chosen to do something different than what happened, you'd have to temporarily unsee the Truth that 'there really is no one to blame...nothing fundamentally wrong or amiss, regardless of what's happening.'
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Post by Figgles on Aug 4, 2022 18:55:34 GMT
All you're doing in that case is switching out a conventional view of reality for an unconventional, transcendent 'seeming' idea of reality.
Ideas about fundamental reality are not THE fundamental reality.
Intuition is still of the realm of dream-stuff. Those who employ intuition over intellect may indeed enjoy a richer experience...a whole different 'level of' experience you could say as that non-conventional view of reality does open up a deeper experience of life.
What's happened with you ZD is you had a mystical experience that you mistook for 'beyond the dream,' when it really was not at all. CC/Kensho is a mystical experience and like ALL experience, it's still of the realm of that which comes and goes...perceivables...empty appearance.
The actual, fundamental, non-conceptual Truth that is referenced in Nonduality is not revealed in some "spiritual/existential" realm via an intuitive insight. You're talking New Age spirituality there....nothing wrong with it, but that still must be seen through, rendered as "dream-stuff," in order to truly be liberated from the dream. Liberation from ALL dream-stuff hinges upon realizing what is dream-stuff and what isn't. So long as you're still mistaking a woo-woo experience for a seeing that is 'beyond/prior to mind,' you're still in mind's prison.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 4, 2022 18:57:34 GMT
The perfect quote for this convo. The attempt to work with what is perceived to try to figure out some deeper Truth "within" it, is a fool's errand. Completely looking in the wrong direction for Truth.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 4, 2022 19:03:21 GMT
This seems to be a context mix. You are mixing up scientific questions with existential questions. There is an important difference. Science questions are relative...existential questions are asked from the relative, but the answers they seek for are imagined to be Truth--Absolute. That's why they are misconceieved.
From the position of SR, it's clear that the question of "why does appearance appear," only arises when there's an SVP in play. The conjuring and wondering about such a thing, is the domain of an imagined entity who takes himself and all perceivables to have inherent existence...who takes the dream to be something more than a dream.
You don't wake up from a night time dream asking how the clown who juggled for you arose/appeared in your dream. You simply take the dream-scape for it is and those kinds of questions cease.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 7, 2022 20:36:48 GMT
Bingo!
"Localized/ bounded consciousness" is an oxymoron. It can only ever be an illusion that consciousness is bound/limited to and by an appearing form.
Again, this is why it's so important to see the "entire realm" of perceivables/appearances as empty of inherent existence....each appearing thing...yes, even a person who appears is empty of inherent existence in it's own right....if it did have inherent existence in it's own right, that would mean that boundedness/limitation (separation) was Truth.
The question of whether localized (limited/bound) consciousness is Truth is entirely misconceived from the vantage point of "beyond mind/impersonal." It really is akin to asking, "Is separation the actual Truth"? Only one still mired in delusion would ask that.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 8, 2022 3:51:41 GMT
This is what you used to say about special/woo-woo experiences of that nature;
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