ZD's Mistake | Spiritualgab

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Aug 13, 2022 20:40:15 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 13, 2022 20:40:15 GMT

ZD: The issue doesn't seem important to me. I function as if the "outside" world exists, but if it doesn't, that's okay, too. This kind of thinking doesn't affect my everyday life.

Gopal:
But when you seems to be unsure as to whether outer world exist, Yes?

I will be watching to see if he actually answers you...and if not and you continue to press him for answer, don't be surprised if you get a warning.

This is precisely the same bs Reefs pulls....they both refuse to answer to and/or admit to their own contradictions.

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ZD's Mistake Aug 13, 2022 20:48:44 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 13, 2022 20:48:44 GMT

SDP:
For purposes of debate, it doesn't matter if the outer world exists, or not. Functionality is what matters. You hit the keyboard, letters appear on the screen. That's functionality. You hit Create Post, it makes semi-permanent your hitting of the keys on the keyboard. I agreed with you on this years ago Gopal. Why should you care about what anybody else says, isn't my view good enough for you?

But of course, we always want to slay the biggest Dragon.

Or protect our sacred cows!

That's what's at the helm of much of the support for Reefs/ZD's tyrannical moderating style i think. Folks feel grateful for their relative sense of clarity based upon their years of reading what Reefs & ZD say about stuff...and they don't want to have to see the falsity in it and thus, essentially have to start over.

...So they defend them and their contradictions, just as SDP is doing there.

I just don't get that....if I'm hanging on every word someone says/writes and then they go and completely contradict what they've said previously, I want an explanation.

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ZD's Mistake Aug 14, 2022 2:35:22 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 14, 2022 2:35:22 GMT

SDP: There is only What Is. There are things that seem-to-be, but are not. zd has had something so profound occur, it couldn't be put into words by the best wordsmith. I think I can find an amazing video of Bobby Fischer, he did not only play chess, it wouldn't be even a slight comparison, but it kind-of gives a sense of Ordering Intelligence available. Multiply the video by a million. Everything That Is, is a movement of the Whole. It's one movement. It's One Unified Whole. Underlying the seeming chaos of everything we see, is a Whole Intelligence operating. IOW, there is always order behind the chaos. zd recognizes that he himself is the Whole, the movement of the Whole.

Getting to your question. If there is only One-Whole-Operating-Being-Thusness, there cannot be an inside and an outside. Look at a tapestry. One side is a beautiful picture. The back side is complete chaos. Yet it is all the same tapestry, One Whole Tapestry. Understand? zd is a thread in the Whole Tapestry, no front or back, no inside or outside.

"Couldn't be put into words by the best wordsmith," and yet, ZD has put it into words (full text wall after full text wall) precisely describing, word for word that 'something that occurred.'

And you've completely dismissed Gopal's point...which is, that ZD has grossly contradicted himself with those two posts in question that Gopal has highlighted.

Instead of jumping up to defend ZD, are not even a tad curious about that obvious contradiction?

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ZD's Mistake Aug 14, 2022 2:42:10 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 14, 2022 2:42:10 GMT

Gopal: You are welcome to follow his teaching! But I unfortunately would always stand on the side of the truth. I never side on the people, for me, truth is more important than people here.

That's what it means to be truly "sincere/earnest." And that has become clear Gopal....you don't take sides....you take each post as it hits you and regardless of 'who' wrote it, if it smells kind of stinky, you're gonna say it....if you rez with it...you're gonna say it...you are not swayed by allegiances and that is not something that many here on either of these forums can accurately, honesty say.

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ZD's Mistake Aug 14, 2022 17:58:27 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 14, 2022 17:58:27 GMT

ZD: No. I only wrote that second statement in order to point to the meaninglessness of that kind of thinking. It was a sop to you, but as I may not have made crystal clear, that kind of thinking not only doesn't affect my life, it doesn't even occur.

22 years ago I saw, without any doubt, that who I had thought I was (a SVP) had been an illusion, and that the real doer of everything is what we can call "Reality with a capital R," or "The Self," or "Source," or "THIS," and that ended the search for truth for this character. All there is is THIS, and everyone and everything IS THIS. The distinction between inside and outside vanished, and self-referential reflective thought patterns ceased. THIS, manifesting as this particular human, never had any more existential questions, and life became quite ordinary, simple, and matter of fact. Pride, shame, regret, fantasization, second guessing, and existential intellection ceased. I realized, like SN, that what I am is nothing (no thing).

The primary value of meditation seems to be the shifting of attention away from thoughts and thereby "getting out of one's head." Meditation may not directly cause existential realizations to occur, but meditative activities and becoming internally silent seem to be highly correlated with those kinds of realizations (judging by several websites that ask people to report what activity immediately preceded major spiritual/existential insights).

Gopal:
I still find there is something wrong with what you have seen.

Yup.

It's really though about what has not been seen 'through.' There's still a presence, where there needs to be an absence.

ZD got hung up on the experiential aspect of his 'glimpse' of Truth, and then headed right back on into the dream, mistaking conceptual ideas for absolute Truth.

He has not yet shifted in locus of seeing from the body/mind 'in the dream,' to 'the ground of awareness.' That's why he still talks to folks about the importance of 'body' knowing over 'mind/intellect' knowing. The Truth is, BOTH equal a locus of seeing that is still in the dream and NOT beyond/prior to.

The body and it's senses, intuitive knowings, still has not been realized by ZD to be appearing within awareness...instead, he posits them as prior to awareness...that's also why he has not yet seen that there is no inner vs. outer...he still believes in the inherent existence of an ojective 'world out there.'

He has failed to see the dependent nature of the entire world of appearing things...which includes the body/mind and all the subtlest perceivables related to that.

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ZD's Mistake Aug 14, 2022 19:03:29 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 14, 2022 19:03:29 GMT

ZD:
How can there be a person riding a roller coaster is there is no person? Find out what is reading these words, and then let us know if THAT is riding a roller coaster.

It's YOU who is positing "a person" to the "up and down roller coaster of experience."

Yes, it's True, there is no 'rider/experiencer,' behind the up and down movement of experience. Just experience arising...to no-one/no-thing in particular.

Similarly, there is no 'person' who is perceiving/experiencing....so how is it that when you look at an appearing person/body/character, (an object... shoe even!) that you know it for absolute certain to be an 'experiencing/perceiving entity'?

If there is no 'person' then how is it you know there to be experiencing/perceiving people/persons?

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ZD's Mistake Aug 14, 2022 19:18:38 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 14, 2022 19:18:38 GMT

SDP: The world of duality, so it seems. I will share something for your daughter. My former was pretty smart. When the kids were young she always gave them a choice. Do you want vanilla or chocolate? Do you want to wear the blue dress today or the yellow dress? IOW, she (or we) chose the choices. Either way, we got what we wanted, and the kid thought they were choosing. This works...maybe up to the teen years, then you have to throw the book out of the window.

To me that is very sad. The idea of needing to control children....why..what are you afraid of....allowing them full expression?

There were times I cringed at the crazy outfits they chose to wear to kindergarten/school....the hairstyles/hair colors they chose..the foods they wanted to eat...room decor....but that freedom to express as they see fit as a unique individual is so important...according to my values, anyway.

SDP: Life is a test, a school, a training ground. Polarity is necessary, up and down is necessary, until it isn't. At a certain point you just face whatever comes today, good or bad, doesn't matter. IOW, the rollercoaster no longer matters. When you are hit in the face with a s**t sandwich, and you have no reaction whatsoever, that's when you know you are free.

This is one of the greatest misconceptions about freedom there is! The goal is not "no reaction whatsoever," it's a reaction that is not tied to the delusion of separation. You don't become robot-like, devoid of emotion/feeling in awakening....you become devoid of the delusion that what you are is a some-thing/some-one that is limited/bound....thus, the responses that DO arise, reflect that. They have no anchor...they arise and pass on through....there is no blaming....no sense of fundamental wrongness tied to the surface judgments.

zd is not saying, for me he's not saying, there are no ups and downs, he's saying the universe is the parent giving the kid a choice, that doesn't matter. You get to the point it doesn't matter. {[And sree, if you happen to read this, that's my definition of no-self. Your tirades show for me you are not free of self (as you say you are)]}.

If you ever get to the point where nothing at all matters atall anymore...where you'd take a shit sandwich the same as you'd take a fresh, crisp veggie sandwich,.........it's actually a severe form of experiential limitation/bondage....to not care 'at all,' is to have an experience devoid of meaning/value.

Last Edit: Aug 14, 2022 19:19:51 GMT by Figgles

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ZD's Mistake Aug 14, 2022 19:30:25 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 14, 2022 19:30:25 GMT

ZD: I would put it somewhat differently, but we're probably pointing to the same sort of thing. I'm saying that the idea of a psychological roller coaster of responses to life events involves reflection about what's going on, self-referentiality, and judgment.

TMT. Seriously.

Even devoid of self-reference, there are still gonna be likes/dislikes in response to what presents. The ups and down are less grandiose in that absence, yes, but they don't cease entirely.

If there's no reflection, judgment, or sense of separateness, then there's simply whatever is happening, and one responds to whatever's happening directly. Good, bad, up, and down all go out the window. Just this; chopping wood, carrying water, and dealing with life events however they occur.

You are lumping 'reflection and judgment' in with 'sense of separation.' Absent the sense of separation, there will still be surface judgments....still some degree of reflection...thoughts, feelings, responses, all continue to arise even in the absence of an imagined SVP.

The Chinese farmer story also points to the same way of life. Pure isness. Do what needs to be done and then do the next thing that needs to be done. It's a condition of ceaseless flow or unfolding without resistance to whatever is happening. A tornado wipes out the neighborhood? Clean up the mess. A flood comes? Move to higher ground. Equanimity continues regardless.

Sure, that does not mean though that the roller-coaster of like/disliked is not still to some degree, in play. The idea that there will be the same feeling response to getting your neighborhood wiped out by a tornado as observing a flourishing neighborhood, is nonsense.

SR does not make for emotional zombies.

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ZD's Mistake Aug 15, 2022 19:17:20 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 15, 2022 19:17:20 GMT

ZD: I prefer to leave all such speculation, ideas, and beliefs to other people.

You see ZD, the problem with you is, you say stuff like this, and then you go on at another time, to directly address the ideas another puts forth.

You've actually said quite a bit about the idea of "life akin to a roller-coaster." It's only when the questions start to get too difficult for you to answer that you take that disingenuous position and make yourself out to be 'beyond' all such ideas.

This not only speaks to your absence of clarity, but it speaks to your character. You are inherently dishonest...it is more important to you that you continue to appear to be a sage to others than that you are honest/sincere.

In short, the habit of incessant thought perpetuates the sense of division and separation. In order to apprehend what the word "THIS" or "Self" or "God" points to, abstract thought is more of a hindrance than a help.

That has nothing to do with the description of experience, it's relative ups and downs as being described as akin to a roller-coaster.

But while we're on the subject of "abstract thought" as more of a hindrance than help when it comes to apprehending the pointers, 'THIS, Self, God," that's precisely what your supposed 'absolute knowing' about others as perceivers/experiencers, iS! An abtsraction.

The idea of a roller coaster is imaginary, as well as the idea that there is anyone who might ride such a roller coaster.

Relative ups and downs, experiential likes/dislikes, the way sometimes life conforms to wanted, sometimes doesn't, that is "imaginary"?

You don't have to imagine a 'someone' riding the experiential wave of up/down as the story/dream rolls on, to see that ups and downs are part and parcel of life experience.

If the intellect becomes quiescent, all such ideas cease, and all that remains is the living truth which cannot be captured or expressed in words.

Which necessarily means then that those words that you insist upon to describe the "Truth" about appearing people/appearing things, those that say: I know each appearing person, object to be alive, experiencing, perceiving, are the result of an active intellect.

When it comes to appearing people...appearing objects, there is no-thing beyond the appearance itself to know "about," other than that it's an expression of abiding awareness. (And yes, those are words attempting to describe Truth....pointers we call them).

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ZD's Mistake Aug 15, 2022 19:22:37 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 15, 2022 19:22:37 GMT

SDP: I read zd's reply. The rollercoaster belongs to the world of duality. Does up and down matter, ultimately? There is a ~place~ in Gopal where there is no up and down. To ~find~ that ~place~, you have to escape your logic-maze. It's up to you.

This is brown-bearism...denial of the relative. Why does it even matter if there is that "place" where ultimately, there are no ups and downs, if not for the experience of ups and downs?

It's the deep downs....so deep that there is suffering that makes that 'peace beyond experience,' so important.

Yeah, seeing that life is a series of ups and downs IS important...making peace with that fact of life is important...there is no escaping that movement regardless of how enlightened you get.

The dream continues to roll on even after awakening. Freedom from the story does not mean the story ceases to unfold. And part and parcel of that unfolding, like or not, are 'emotional ups and downs.'

Being awake means being a-okay with that.