ZD's Mistake | Spiritualgab

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Jul 23, 2022 18:10:26 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 23, 2022 18:10:26 GMT

Zendancer: No reference for what ND is pointing to. Too bad the Infinite has never been encountered beyond mind. One glimpse and all of these ideas about appearances would disappear.

Indeed, a true apprehension of the infinite IS 'beyond mind,' thus, 'beyond all ideas.' Which means, beyond all property/quality.....beyond concepts like: Alive, perceiving/experiencing entities.

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ZD's Mistake Jul 23, 2022 21:08:20 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 23, 2022 21:08:20 GMT

Zendancer: Correct. The real key here is to stop thinking, and see if any of these appearances ideas still remain.
When the mind is silent, the body continues to function intelligently.

The "idea" that an appearance is but an appearance may not, but the appearance obviously does, or there'd be no 'body' that you could point to say that it continues to function intelligently in silence.

The heart continues to beat 100,000 times each day, blood cells (all of which are intelligent) go where they need to go, food continues to get digested, works gets done, conversation occurs, and not a single thought arises about whether what's being apprehended is real or unreal, existent or non-existent.

Correct!

There is also no 'absolute/certain knowing' being carted around that says the person being engaged with is a perceiver/experiencer!

The absence of knowing relative to appearance really IS "an absence."

An absence does not require 'minding' to keep it in place.

All your talk about mental silence and yet you are the one who is insisting that when you engage with people, you are carting around an absolute certain knowing that they are in fact conscious, perceiving, experiencing...see how crazy that is?

Norio Kushi's mind went silent for two weeks, and he suddenly realized that who he had thought he was was not who he was. Terry Stephens' mind went silent for more than two months, and he woke up from the dream of separation. Gary Weber's mind went silent on the way to a business meeting, and he discovered that mind chatter was unnecessary for intelligent functionality.

If the mind becomes silent, reflection ceases, and all problems disappear. No thoughts arise about whether other people are appearances. If ideation is left behind, life becomes very simple and everything is obvious. Self and other both vanish as concepts. If anyone has doubts about this, stop thinking for a few days and find out what remains when the mind becomes silent.

Agreed...similarly, no thoughts arise about an absolute knowing that people engaged with are "actual" experiencers/perceivers.

On one hand you want to argue for an absence of carted around knowledge but then outta the other side of your mouth, you insist that as you engage people day to day, you possess absolute knowledge about them being perceivers/experiencers. You can't have it both ways ZD.

As the world is engaged absent an overlay of minding about it, that means that whatever arises is engaged with at face value...no need to 'know for absolute certain' that the person before me is 'actually, for absolute certain a perceiver/experiencer,' to engage with the appearance of that. (And NO, that does not and never has meant carting around the idea of the other being a mere appearance!)

In the shift that is SR, the entire world/universe loses it's inherent substance/existence. That is NOT an idea...it's actually the absence thereof! Please, read that over a few times...slowly.

"Not knowing" is the not the presence of doubt....it truly is an absence.

Last Edit: Jul 23, 2022 21:10:51 GMT by Figgles

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Jul 23, 2022 23:40:36 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 23, 2022 23:40:36 GMT

Zendancer:
Me too. He has a Stepford wife and a Stepford child, and they all live together in a Stepford cartoon world. As long as a Stepford wife does what is expected, I guess it won't matter whether she's real or a figment of G's imagination. Of course, this all falls apart if the mind goes silent. The issue evaporates along with all other ideas.

how about YOUR absolute, certain knowing that people are in fact, actually perceiving/experiencing....does that also evaporate when mind goes silent?

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ZD's Mistake Jul 23, 2022 23:46:15 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 23, 2022 23:46:15 GMT

Reefs: Yeah, there's an entire forum dedicated to Reefs post dumpster (and ZD). Must be true love.

It is true love....a true love of the Truth...a deep interest in pointing out just how sneaky mind can be. You and ZD come across as having a good conceptual grasp on Nonduality...or at least you did in the past. As I always say, pointing to Truth always flows forth effortlessly when there's falsity to point away from.

Both of you demonstrate the traps that lie in wait in mind, even for those who are very sure they're seeing clearly.

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ZD's Mistake Jul 25, 2022 4:40:33 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 25, 2022 4:40:33 GMT

Zendancer:
Pls don't include Z. He's never been to the Gab site.

It's true, you've never registered/logged in, but I'm sure that you quite regularly DO come here to read....it's just a tad too uncanny if not, how following certain posts where I talk about your pov, you "volley-back" with a comment that directly relates to what I just said. I'm sure others too have noticed such. Also...there are the IP's.....

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ZD's Mistake Jul 26, 2022 21:36:12 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 26, 2022 21:36:12 GMT

Siftingtotruth: You don't seem to consider yourself a seeker, and these things are not worth arguing about in the abstract. They're too based on transcendental experience. I've given my opinion clearly in the video in my own language -- that the idea of interference is incorrect and an illusion. But if you disagree, there's really no point in arguing the issue because it's going to become a spiritual-dick-measurement competition, and I have no interest.

Zendancer:
Agreed.

Okay. That should have meant that the end of further presenting of that side of the argument, no?

But instead....

Zendancer:
Furthermore, although sitting practice is perfectly okay, if one is pursuing ATA-T or other similar meditative activities, then even sitting is not necessary. I contemplated what I wanted to understand while sitting, while at work, while driving around, while walking in the woods, etc. and my intuitive hunch about silent contemplation turned out to be correct. Here's a related quote from Einstein:

"I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me. The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why."

After an initial kensho that answered several of my most important existential questions, I speculated that everything else I wanted to know was "within," and I intuited that with sufficient silence, the answer to any existential question could be resolved. It seemed to me that the intellect only deals with what might be called "superficial understanding," and the answers to questions too deep for the intellect to resolve require accessing a deeper level of mind. We could call that deeper level of mind "the subconscious" or "Big Mind," and that level of mind is obviously non-local because it is one-with the entire cosmos.

It is this blatant display of contradiction... saying one thing/doing another, that has landed you along with Reefs at the top of my list for 'posts that exemplify confusion, contradiction and/or delusion.'

You do this so often...state openly that you agree to disagree and see no point in arguing further....but then.....lo and behold....you go on to argue further.

It's what you did to me when I was on ST...I'd challenge you, you'd tell me you were not interested in arguing/debating, but then in your conversations with others, you'd reference my assertion and argue against it. You did the same to E as well.

Awareness of this kind of BS as it's happening, is the very basics of "becoming aware of the machinations of mind," and in the absence of that clarity, it's no wonder you've failed to see the totality of what constitutes "empty appearance."

The necessity for total and absolute self-honesty....complete sincerity, when it comes to seeing what in the blazes is going on--being aware of the machinations of mind, also correlates strongly with SR/wakefulness.......not saying they are one & the same and not saying it's causal per se, but really, that which is standing in the way of total honesty/sincerity re: seeing mind's machinations is none-other than ego/mind identified with...an SVP, thus, it makes sense that that has to go for SR to be. They go hand in hand.

Last Edit: Jul 26, 2022 21:37:26 GMT by Figgles

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ZD's Mistake Jul 30, 2022 16:57:41 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 30, 2022 16:57:41 GMT

Zendancer: Yes, and it makes me wonder exactly what people have realized or experienced when they talk exclusively about awareness or consciousness.

A kensho leads to a different way of talking about this stuff, and the terms "suchness" or "thusness" become far more pertinent in communicating what was realized. People who only attain SR and have never had a kensho event rarely use words like "a living presence" or acknowledge the actuality of what is here and now.

You believe that there is actually something "other than" awareness/consciousness?

All sense of suchness/thusness....the phenomenal, experientially known as a "living presence,".....as an "intelligence unfolding," (there's a myriad of ways we can try to capture it) is ultimately, none-other than awareness/consciousness. That's what "Oneness" is referencing. You seem to be suggesting there is awareness and then, something else....something that is "the actuality" of what it here and now.

You are clearly positing actual 'two-ness.' You do see that, right?

Last Edit: Jul 30, 2022 16:59:02 GMT by Figgles

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ZD's Mistake Jul 30, 2022 18:22:21 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 30, 2022 18:22:21 GMT

Zendancer: "It's alive. Igor. The thing is alive!"

There is a "deeper"reality ZD....a transcendent shift in seeing from beyond/prior to all perceivables that reveals all 'things' to be empty appearance only....that reveals that perceived 'aliveness' itself to be appearance only.

....mind cannot imagine a complete absence of thingness...of all attribute, property, quality, but I assure you, there is a realization (a shift in seeing) that negates them all and illuminates the fundamental absence that is pointed to by the terms "emptiness/silence/no-thing-ness."

You don't have to let go/lose your perceived quality/attribute relative to the appearing world/universe/cosmos, of "aliveness"....in waking up, you just have to see it as "an appearance only,"....not "absolute Truth," as you've been mistaking it to be.

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ZD's Mistake Jul 31, 2022 5:15:14 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 31, 2022 5:15:14 GMT

Satchi: Talking exclusively about awareness is because that is the core of non-duality. You talk about realizations in the plural. I only talk about realization in the singular because there is only one realization and that is Self-realization. People who only attain SR? I am astounded by this since SR makes any other spiritual shift or insight pale into insignificance. No one who is genuinely Self-realized would ever make such a statement by putting SR into second place against realization(S). I wouldn't call them that. They are little insights that can happen. Now that I understand more about what you actually mean I have to admit that I've had many of them but they are completely insignificant. If you want a shortcut and have more amazing thoughts like, "wow I really know how the universe works now" then just take some LSD. I know how that works since I did several times in my youth and I had a 12-hour continuous "Ken Show".

But is that firework show remotely comparable to SR. No not at all, not by any stretch of the imagination. they're just manufactured by the mind's imagination since SR is not a memory of some kind of shift that is continually recalled as a story that happened on a particular time on a particular date. I can't remember the number of times I've seen you post this story. SR is such a profound change of apperception of reality that nothing else is worth talking about. It cannot be compared to anything else. It is the realization that you are unlimited and unbounded awareness. There is nothing more profound than that. And you don't even unlock the secrets of the cosmos. You just get peace of mind, contentedness and self-fulfillment. Maybe that sounds boring to you.

A most excellent post!

LOL! 12 hr. continuous "Ken Show."

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ZD's Mistake Jul 31, 2022 20:53:24 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 31, 2022 20:53:24 GMT

Zendancer: There doesn't seem to be any reference for kensho or knowledge that there can be many different paths to discovering THIS. For some people kensho and SR can occur simultaneously, and that seems to have been the case with the Buddha. For many seekers, however, there can be several important realizations along the way that lead to greater and greater clarity before SR or a deep kensho ends the search. Furthermore, the search can end in many different ways, and some of them fall far short of either kensho or SR.

I have a friend who was a serious seeker for more than twenty years, and recently he just gave up. He told me that he got tired of seeking and tired of never finding any answers. Another fellow had a realization that seeking is a mind game, and that ended his search. Neither of these men ever discovered THIS/Self, but they both claim that they now have peace of mind.

Hakuin, by contrast, had numerous kenshos, each of which deepened his understanding, and what he describes as the satori that ended his search was actually a kensho, judging by his description of it being triggered by a sensory event. At the age of 19 Seung Sahn attained SR as a result of a deep kensho triggered by the ringing of a bell at a nearby temple after doing a 100 day solo retreat. Paul Morgan-Somers wasn't even a seeker when, at the age of 16, he was suddenly engulfed by what he calls "the ocean of being." Rinzai woke up after two Zen Masters played a game on him. Norio Kushi and Terry Stephens and Gary Weber woke up after their minds went silent for a period of time. If one reads the stories of a hundred people who discovered the Infinite each story is uniquely different, so imagining that there is only one pathway simply ignores the vast spiritual literature that's available.

Ultimately, there are NO "causal pathways." Not even one. So all this talk about a friend who did that, or another friend who did something else, or Paul Morgan-Somers...Norio Kushi....Terry Stephens....blah, blah, blah....(you are always name dropping as though invoking the said experience of another somehow proves anything) is meaningless.

The mystical journey is something entirely different than the profound shift in seeing that is SR.

Last Edit: Jul 31, 2022 20:54:03 GMT by Figgles