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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2017 7:16:14 GMT
All you know of the arising of individuation is the 'awareness' of it. Fundamentally, yes. Compared to what? Some thing that actually does have 'it's' own existence? Exactly. |
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Post by Figgles on May 19, 2017 18:00:17 GMT
Yes. I get that. But you were speaking about those who are 'a center,' vs. those who are not. I am trying to figure out how in your estimation, things works for those who are not a center...and then, how that applies to the genetic defect scenario. When someone is used for your expression of your inner pattern, then that means they are used for you,right? Or they are created for you. Yes? Yes, I get how it can be seen that way, but, The ideas of another who appears being created 'for' me and my story, involves a certain degree of speculation. Sure, they are appearing, and often surrounding thoughts and circumstances can be seen to be related, but beyond the fact that they ARE appearing, all else is speculatory, right? |
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Post by Figgles on May 19, 2017 18:07:16 GMT
This is something coming from Enigma's imagination. For a long time he believed this to be true, but after a long argument I made him understand existence of other individual view points are just speculation. Yup. Yes. I'm pretty sure I agree with all that. In short, a big yes to "The one who is having the dream is impersonal consciousness itself,".....if we are assigning the label of 'impersonal consciousness' to that which gives rise to all of it, then of course that has to be so. However, we have to be careful not to directly assign quality to emptiness. While ultimately, any perceived divide between 'personal/impersonal' collapses, it's also important when talking about this stuff, to be able to see the distinction if called for. (Important to note: Distinction never means 'separate from,') |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 18:24:28 GMT
When someone is used for your expression of your inner pattern, then that means they are used for you,right? Or they are created for you. Yes? Yes, I get how it can be seen that way, but, The ideas of another who appears being created 'for' me and my story, involves a certain degree of speculation. Sure, they are appearing, and often surrounding thoughts and circumstances can be seen to be related, but beyond the fact that they ARE appearing, all else is speculatory, right? They are appearing with certain characters is not speculatory, they are real or not is the speculatory. |
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Post by Figgles on May 21, 2017 16:13:37 GMT
Yes, I get how it can be seen that way, but, The ideas of another who appears being created 'for' me and my story, involves a certain degree of speculation. Sure, they are appearing, and often surrounding thoughts and circumstances can be seen to be related, but beyond the fact that they ARE appearing, all else is speculatory, right? They are appearing with certain characters is not speculatory, they are real or not is the speculatory. Okay yes, the seeing that they appear encompasses seeing qualities and traits of those who appear, of course. The speculation bit lies in the idea that those characters are created for some specific purpose, to fullfill some specific goal, perhaps, BY some kind of God-like entity that has it's own plans and wants and desires. That part involves a degree of surmising. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 9:23:18 GMT
They are appearing with certain characters is not speculatory, they are real or not is the speculatory. Okay yes, the seeing that they appear encompasses seeing qualities and traits of those who appear, of course. The speculation bit lies in the idea that those characters are created for some specific purpose, to fullfill some specific goal, perhaps, BY some kind of God-like entity that has it's own plans and wants and desires. That part involves a degree of surmising. They are helping to bring your inner pattern, when your inner pattern dies out of your realization, those people are moved away. Tell me what other way you would interpret this given situation? |
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Tenka
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Post by Tenka on May 26, 2017 18:51:14 GMT
I love what Jeff Foster says about this in his article entitled; WHY THE IMPERSONAL DOES NOT ‘EXIST’The birth and death of fundamentalism in nonduality and Advaita teachings.: Some who get caught upon in nonduality teachings become attached to the idea that they are now beyond or above 'the personal.' From this entrenched position, they proudly and often snidely, mock those who they deem to be still operating and experiencing as a dreaded "person." I've noticed that The belief that I am no longer 'a person' often results in the appearance of an aszhole.  I recall arriving on a spiritual forum, several years ago, to talk about the experience of joy, to be confronted with the accusation; "yeah, but you're still a person," as though the fact that I still engaged with personal stories and cared about the quality of my experience was some kind of crime. Those who eschew the personal in favor of "The Impersonal, are somehow failing to see that there really is no separating the two. Absent expression through the personal, the impersonal has no existence....is just an empty idea referencing some no-thing. Coming full circle means seeing the impersonal in the personal, and to do that, you cannot eschew the personal. If you find yourself speaking snidely of 'people-peeps,' from a position of being very sure you are not one, you would do well to look into that. It's the classical I am not here B.S. One requires to be here to say I am not . |
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 19:37:10 GMT
I love what Jeff Foster says about this in his article entitled; WHY THE IMPERSONAL DOES NOT ‘EXIST’The birth and death of fundamentalism in nonduality and Advaita teachings.: Some who get caught upon in nonduality teachings become attached to the idea that they are now beyond or above 'the personal.' From this entrenched position, they proudly and often snidely, mock those who they deem to be still operating and experiencing as a dreaded "person." I've noticed that The belief that I am no longer 'a person' often results in the appearance of an aszhole. I recall arriving on a spiritual forum, several years ago, to talk about the experience of joy, to be confronted with the accusation; "yeah, but you're still a person," as though the fact that I still engaged with personal stories and cared about the quality of my experience was some kind of crime. Those who eschew the personal in favor of "The Impersonal, are somehow failing to see that there really is no separating the two. Absent expression through the personal, the impersonal has no existence....is just an empty idea referencing some no-thing. Coming full circle means seeing the impersonal in the personal, and to do that, you cannot eschew the personal. If you find yourself speaking snidely of 'people-peeps,' from a position of being very sure you are not one, you would do well to look into that. It's the classical I am not here B.S. One requires to be here to say I am not . No one is saying you are not here. What some people are saying is that what you identify with, as your body and mind. Are the physical, mental and emotional impressions that you have accumulated in your life. Which means that you can 'become' the accumulation, but the accumulation can never become you. |
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Tenka
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Post by Tenka on May 26, 2017 20:25:39 GMT
It's the classical I am not here B.S. One requires to be here to say I am not . No one is saying you are not here. What some people are saying is that what you identify with, as your body and mind. Are the physical, mental and emotional impressions that you have accumulated in your life. Which means that you can 'become' the accumulation, but the accumulation can never become you. U have said yourself that there is no-one present per se it just appears as if there is .. |
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 21:49:59 GMT
No one is saying you are not here. What some people are saying is that what you identify with, as your body and mind. Are the physical, mental and emotional impressions that you have accumulated in your life. Which means that you can 'become' the accumulation, but the accumulation can never become you. U have said yourself that there is no-one present per se it just appears as if there is .. That's why there is such a gross misunderstanding surrounding what you are and identifying with what you are not...  |
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