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Post by Figgles on Jun 13, 2020 22:49:46 GMT
Not what I'm saying at all. That's strange you'd even think that's what I might be suggesting. "Beyond the dream"...beyond "the phenomenal" is beyond all 'worlds.' Surely that should be a given. Completely non-conceptual seeing. No, I wasn't talking there about perception happening differently after realization. I am talking about the seeing of the dream as a dream, only been seen from 'beyond' the dream. Realization of the existential truth is an entirely different vantage point than the vantage point from within experience. It's a paradigm shift beyond any paradigm shift the mind can imagine. Well, then, if you didn't mean "seeing of the the dream as a dream, from 'beyond' the dream" as a metaphor for realization, then I say, in reply, that there is no "beyond the dream", as all that you can ever "see", is the dream, and you're never not "looking from within the dream". Realizational seeing requires a shift in seeing from the eyes of an SVP, from beyond immersion within the dream, to beyond, transcendent of the dream and all dream-content.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2020 2:49:53 GMT
Well, then, if you didn't mean "seeing of the the dream as a dream, from 'beyond' the dream" as a metaphor for realization, then I say, in reply, that there is no "beyond the dream", as all that you can ever "see", is the dream, and you're never not "looking from within the dream". Realizational seeing requires a shift in seeing from the eyes of an SVP, from beyond immersion within the dream, to beyond, transcendent of the dream and all dream-content. Wow. You're really struggling to make your mental concepts sound Truthy. I've got to give it to you for effort.
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Jun 14, 2020 2:52:23 GMT
Well, then, if you didn't mean "seeing of the the dream as a dream, from 'beyond' the dream" as a metaphor for realization, then I say, in reply, that there is no "beyond the dream", as all that you can ever "see", is the dream, and you're never not "looking from within the dream". Realizational seeing requires a shift in seeing from the eyes of an SVP, from beyond immersion within the dream, to beyond, transcendent of the dream and all dream-content. What's the difference between realization and "realizational seeing", and what is that shift, if not realization?
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Post by Figgles on Jun 14, 2020 4:20:32 GMT
Realizational seeing requires a shift in seeing from the eyes of an SVP, from beyond immersion within the dream, to beyond, transcendent of the dream and all dream-content. What's the difference between realization and "realizational seeing", and what is that shift, if not realization? It's fine to talk about realization, seeing, and the shift, as all, hand in hand. Or if you want to narrow it down to just 'realization,' that works too. I'm just trying to be as descriptive as possible. Not always the easier to explain the radical paradigm shift involved in SR....and it sounded as though you weren't on the same page, so....yeah...
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Jun 14, 2020 4:30:00 GMT
What's the difference between realization and "realizational seeing", and what is that shift, if not realization? It's fine to talk about realization, seeing, and the shift, as all, hand in hand. Or if you want to narrow it down to just 'realization,' that works too. I'm just trying to be as descriptive as possible. Not always the easier to explain the radical paradigm shift involved in SR....and it sounded as though you weren't on the same page, so.... yeah... Ok, so I'm taking this to mean "yes, a shift in seeing from the eyes of an SVP, from beyond immersion within the dream, to beyond, transcendent of the dream and all dream-content, refers to realization."
So then, is "realizational seeing" (from that same post), the seeing that happens after realization?
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Post by Figgles on Jun 14, 2020 4:39:50 GMT
It's fine to talk about realization, seeing, and the shift, as all, hand in hand. Or if you want to narrow it down to just 'realization,' that works too. I'm just trying to be as descriptive as possible. Not always the easier to explain the radical paradigm shift involved in SR....and it sounded as though you weren't on the same page, so.... yeah... Ok, so I'm taking this to mean "yes, a shift in seeing from the eyes of an SVP, from beyond immersion within the dream, to beyond, transcendent of the dream and all dream-content, refers to realization." So then, is "realizational seeing" (from that same post), the seeing that happens after realization?
No, wasn't talking there about 'after realization,' I was talking about transcendent seeing/realizing/seeing from beyond the dream. There's all sorts of terms that will do. I was using different words because you didn't seem to have reference for 'seeing beyond the dream.' All those terms indicate the same. "Informing of mind," is what I'd call what happens following the realization.
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Jun 14, 2020 5:00:23 GMT
Ok, so I'm taking this to mean "yes, a shift in seeing from the eyes of an SVP, from beyond immersion within the dream, to beyond, transcendent of the dream and all dream-content, refers to realization." So then, is "realizational seeing" (from that same post), the seeing that happens after realization?
No, wasn't talking there about 'after realization,' I was talking about transcendent seeing/realizing/seeing from beyond the dream. There's all sorts of terms that will do. I was using different words because you didn't seem to have reference for 'seeing beyond the dream.' All those terms indicate the same. "Informing of mind," is what I'd call what happens following the realization. Well, aside from your continuous ego-feed, you referred to "seeing beyond the dream" as "the awakened vantage point" (which implied a post-realization perspective), and didn't explicitly reply to "if you didn't mean 'seeing beyond the dream' as a metaphor for realization" with "oh, yes, that's what I meant", so, seemed to me you were waffling to cover yer tracks.
Thinking that there's some superpeep world filled with all sorts of mystical perception that the unrealized can't perceive is a common misconception.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 14, 2020 5:10:42 GMT
Well, aside from your continuous ego-feed, you referred to "seeing beyond the dream" as "the awakened vantage point" (which implied a post-realization perspective), and didn't explicitly reply to "if you didn't mean 'seeing beyond the dream' as a metaphor for realization" with "oh, yes, that's what I meant", so, seemed to me you were waffling to cover yer tracks. "Abiding wakefulness" does mean an abiding shift in terms of where you are now seeing from. No, not what I'm talking about. that's the stance of the mystic.
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Jun 14, 2020 5:22:58 GMT
Well, aside from your continuous ego-feed, you referred to "seeing beyond the dream" as "the awakened vantage point" (which implied a post-realization perspective), and didn't explicitly reply to "if you didn't mean 'seeing beyond the dream' as a metaphor for realization" with "oh, yes, that's what I meant", so, seemed to me you were waffling to cover yer tracks. "Abiding wakefulness" does mean an abiding shift in terms of where you are now seeing from. Oh, so that's the figgle-approved phrasing then? You should start a book of them. No, not what I'm talking about. that's the stance of the mystic. Yeah .. you'll likely not forgive me for raising my eyebrow at "seeing from beyond the dream .. an entirely different vantage point than the vantage point within experience", but that's ok, 'cause I don't need you to.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 14, 2020 5:29:48 GMT
"Abiding wakefulness" does mean an abiding shift in terms of where you are now seeing from. Oh, so that's the figgle-approved phrasing then? You should start a book of them. No, not what I'm talking about. that's the stance of the mystic. Yeah .. you'll likely not forgive me for raising my eyebrow at "seeing from beyond the dream .. an entirely different vantage point than the vantage point within experience", but that's ok, 'cause I don't need you to. Do you deny that awakening involves such a paradigm shift...? Sorry, not sure what your point is here.
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