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Post by Figgles on Sept 22, 2018 23:36:37 GMT
So how the heck does the meat end up on plate/table, before you, so you can then 'enjoy' it? Or does it just magically show up on your plate..? Oh wow...look, there's some slaughtered pig on my plate.....I really don't feel much like eating it...not much taste for it all, but I am strangely still feeling a pull towards cutting it up and putting it in my mouth...oh wait a minute...yeah, actually....that is kinda enjoyable. Yum. sort of.  BS. I go to the supermarket, and I pay attention to intuitive pull towards something. I look for a sense of congruence and resonance. Sometimes I might experience a preference for something, but if my arm won't reach up and take it off the shelf, it isn't taken. Are you familiar with kinesiology? That's how choices are made, except that I don't have to muscle test everything. I'm sensitive enough to skip that step. I have seen in the last several months that you have very little reference for what it means to be surrendered to divine flow. I don't know how to explain that better to you, other than the way I am doing. I don't experience 'choice' in the way you do. I have also seen clearly in your semi right wing support of capitalism, that you start from the position that folks could make different choices to the ones they make. I start from the position that folks can only make the choice they ARE making. Now in my case, I experience that literally, and I trust in the divine flow of the action. Sure, that makes me a hypocrite at times. I'm okay with that. Sure, it means I experience cognitive dissonance at times. I'm okay with that. Do you know that from the moment you wake up, to the moment you go to bed, you are hurting the planet, hurting people, hurting animals? It's inevitable because everything we do involves commodification. Everything we do is from within capitalism, which is a system born out of false belief. Put the lights on in your house? Run the shower? Buy food? Use transport? Wear clothes? All of it is damaging. Hypocrisy is inevitable for those that speak out against the current system. You're talking outta both sides of your mouth here Andrew. One who surrenders to divine flow does not feel the need to fight against, to stand in resistance to what is.....does not see a broken world that needs to be fixed. If you really saw that folks can only make the choice they are making, you wouldn't be fighting against what is...vilifying the current systems in place. You'd rest in the peaceful knowing that all is unfolding precisely as it should and you'd chill the fuck out on your "anti-Capitalist" stance...and all the other stuff you rant about. And if you honestly felt bad over the apparent plight of animals raised for food and had no strong inclination towards the taste of meat, you'd plain and simply experience an impetus to stop eating it. It's kinda crazy actually that you now turn around and suggest that you live in acquiscence to divine flow....whaaat?  You are the epitomy of what it means to resist the divine flow...just one example... "dimming the light of being" for the purpose of controlling what another feels/experiences. Oh yeah...there's that peaceful flowing along with what is in action.  And yes, as I said, not all values will be easy to walk....sometimes a compromise is necessary and if that's the case, it's okay. However, the diet thing is very simple. years ago, not so much, but these days, with all the protein/meat substitutions available, if one truly takes issues with the inhumane practices involved in animal farming, it's easily doable. You're trying to straddle both sides of a fence...you can't both be seeing a broken/unbalanced world that needs fixing, and efforting to make that happen, AND simultaneously just trucking along peacefully with the divine flow.....you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, and in doing so, making it clear there's some confusion happening here. |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by Andrew on Sept 22, 2018 23:42:25 GMT
I go to the supermarket, and I pay attention to intuitive pull towards something. I look for a sense of congruence and resonance. Sometimes I might experience a preference for something, but if my arm won't reach up and take it off the shelf, it isn't taken. Are you familiar with kinesiology? That's how choices are made, except that I don't have to muscle test everything. I'm sensitive enough to skip that step. I have seen in the last several months that you have very little reference for what it means to be surrendered to divine flow. I don't know how to explain that better to you, other than the way I am doing. I don't experience 'choice' in the way you do. I have also seen clearly in your semi right wing support of capitalism, that you start from the position that folks could make different choices to the ones they make. I start from the position that folks can only make the choice they ARE making. Now in my case, I experience that literally, and I trust in the divine flow of the action. Sure, that makes me a hypocrite at times. I'm okay with that. Sure, it means I experience cognitive dissonance at times. I'm okay with that. Do you know that from the moment you wake up, to the moment you go to bed, you are hurting the planet, hurting people, hurting animals? It's inevitable because everything we do involves commodification. Everything we do is from within capitalism, which is a system born out of false belief. Put the lights on in your house? Run the shower? Buy food? Use transport? Wear clothes? All of it is damaging. Hypocrisy is inevitable for those that speak out against the current system. You're talking outta both sides of your mouth here Andrew. One who surrenders to divine flow does not feel the need to fight against, to stand in resistance to what is.....does not see a broken world that needs to be fixed. If you really saw that folks can only make the choice they are making, you wouldn't be fighting against what is...vilifying the current systems in place. You'd rest in the peaceful knowing that all is unfolding precisely as it should and you'd chill the fuck out on your "anti-Capitalist" stance...and all the other stuff you rant about. And if you honestly felt bad over the apparent plight of animals raised for food and had no strong inclination towards the taste of meat, you'd plain and simply experience an impetus to stop eating it. It's kinda crazy actually that you now turn around and suggest that you live in acquiscence to divine flow....whaaat? You are the epitomy of what it means to resist the divine flow...just one example... "dimming the light of being" for the purpose of controlling what another feels/experiences. Oh yeah...there's that peaceful flowing along with what is in action. And yes, as I said, not all values will be easy to walk....sometimes a compromise is necessary and if that's the case, it's okay. However, the diet thing is very simple. years ago, not so much, but these days, with all the protein/meat substitutions available, if one truly takes issues with the inhumane practices involved in animal farming, it's easily doable. You're trying to straddle both sides of a fence...you can't both be seeing a broken/unbalanced world that needs fixing, and efforting to make that happen, AND simultaneously just trucking along peacefully with the divine flow.....you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, and in doing so, making it clear there's some confusion happening here. Wrong. Trusting in intuitive guidance may have us taking strong positions of resistance. It may have us judging. It may have us disallowing and not-accepting. It may have us efforting at something. Intuitive guidance isn't always ideal (and especially isn't always your silly spiritual ideal lol). Trusting in intuitive guidance means that we accept our positions of resistance, we accept our judgments when made, we accept the disallowing, we accept the hypocrisies. We don't judge those aspect of our personality, or our expression. To be clear, the third density world is not broken. It is third density. Try to understand that. |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 22, 2018 23:44:18 GMT
But beyond this 'commodification' you take issue with, do you see wrongness in subjecting animals to the fear and pain they appear to experience prior to ending up on your plate? You have argued for the fact of animal's suffering in the past. Has your stance on that changed? I don't understand because you've also shared in the past that you love animals, love spending time with them, relate to them deeply and feel badly when you see them in pain or in fear. How is it that your caring/compassion becomes a cool second to this intuition you speak of? Isn't a sense of 'this is wrong....I feel bad that I am causing a sentient being to experience pain' the most obvious form of what could be deemed 'intuition'? If it really doesn't matter to you in terms of taste, why not simply acquiesce to the sense of not wanting to contribute to the pain/fear of sentient beings? To someone looking on at you contributing to animal fear and pain through your diet choices, don't you think it likely appears as though YOU are placing your faith in egocentric interests rooted in false beliefs? How dare you judge others or even the systems in place, when you yourself disregard the pain of animals raised for food, in favor of a supposed intuitive sense that somehow trumps your own sense of discomfort at doing so. What choices? I think you think you know stuff about me, that you really don't. You though, are the dude who speaks about how he can let his light shine fully in the midst of the animals he house-sits, but who then, has no problem consuming other apparently sentient beings, just like them, to fulfill some sense of 'following intuitive guidance' even though he would be just as happy eating fruit and veggies. THAT, is clear evidence in my books of a certain degree of 'insensitivity'. If I am feeling compassion for the apparent plight of an animal, that sense of compassion is all the 'intuition' I require to behave accordingly. You on the other hand, ignore that and follow some deeper urging within you. yes, it does sound very much to me akin to the abusive Catholic priests and anyone else who selfishly follows his urges to hurt another, even though he says he knows it's wrong. One thing I very much agree with AH on is this: To behave in a way that you personally judge to be bad or wrong, to ignore that and do it anyway, and then try to justify it through mental shenanigans, is the most detrimental thing a person can do to himself. Of course I see wrongness in subjecting animals to fear and pain and suffering. I see wrongness in subjecting trees and plants to harmful energy too! I see wrongness in most of the way we live, because most of it IS causing fear and pain and suffering to others in the name of 'profit' (though actually, at the highest level, it's less about 'profit' and more about 'control') Every moment of your day is harming people in some way. I trust that the intuitive guidance is ultimately leading us away from mass pain, fear and suffering....and soon. But we can't step outside of the system, so I am harming people every time I turn the lights on. Being sat here on the internet is causing harm. I am harming all the time, as are you. So the best I can do is trust the guidance. Anyone that challenges the system in place is going to be a hypocrite as I said. But so what? I'm okay with being a hypocrite because I still trust that the actions I take are leading to goodness. A Catholic priest that abuses isn't going to be trusting in intuitive guidance, because trusting that guidance requires the dissolution of ego. I am very sure that these priests are deeply in ego. I see strong ego in your philosophical position, so I don't believe you are trusting intuitive guidance. Even if I accept that you are vegan for compassionate reasons, it MAY not be the highest form of compassion. Your IDEAS of how compassion should express, may not match what your guidance suggests. In regard to the quote, I regard my actions as the highest choice available to me in that moment. It may not be the IDEAL choice, but ideal choices aren't always available. Ideally, what I eat causes no harm to animal or vegetable or tree. Ideally, every action I take is entirely harmless. So when you suggest then that in my 'not knowing' I must therefore be relating to others in an insensitive manner, what does that mean exactly? ...what's an example of how that insensitivity would manifest? You seem to be acknowledging that behavior really doesn't matter because every action is harmful. |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 22, 2018 23:49:53 GMT
You're talking outta both sides of your mouth here Andrew. One who surrenders to divine flow does not feel the need to fight against, to stand in resistance to what is.....does not see a broken world that needs to be fixed. If you really saw that folks can only make the choice they are making, you wouldn't be fighting against what is...vilifying the current systems in place. You'd rest in the peaceful knowing that all is unfolding precisely as it should and you'd chill the fuck out on your "anti-Capitalist" stance...and all the other stuff you rant about. And if you honestly felt bad over the apparent plight of animals raised for food and had no strong inclination towards the taste of meat, you'd plain and simply experience an impetus to stop eating it. It's kinda crazy actually that you now turn around and suggest that you live in acquiscence to divine flow....whaaat? You are the epitomy of what it means to resist the divine flow...just one example... "dimming the light of being" for the purpose of controlling what another feels/experiences. Oh yeah...there's that peaceful flowing along with what is in action. And yes, as I said, not all values will be easy to walk....sometimes a compromise is necessary and if that's the case, it's okay. However, the diet thing is very simple. years ago, not so much, but these days, with all the protein/meat substitutions available, if one truly takes issues with the inhumane practices involved in animal farming, it's easily doable. You're trying to straddle both sides of a fence...you can't both be seeing a broken/unbalanced world that needs fixing, and efforting to make that happen, AND simultaneously just trucking along peacefully with the divine flow.....you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, and in doing so, making it clear there's some confusion happening here. Wrong. Trusting in intuitive guidance may have us taking strong positions of resistance. It may have us judging. It may have us disallowing and not-accepting. It may have us efforting at something. Intuitive guidance isn't always ideal (and especially isn't always your silly spiritual ideal lol). Trusting in intuitive guidance means that we accept our positions of resistance, we accept our judgments when made, we accept the disallowing, we accept the hypocrisies. We don't judge those aspect of our personality, or our expression. To be clear, the third density world is not broken. It is third density. Try to understand that. "Surrendering to divine flow" does not mean efforting, judging, dis-allowing or not-accepting in any way that is substantive enough that it could affect an entire world view, as you demonstrate. If you had truly accepted your positions of resistance and your judgements as they initially arose, they'd never have gained this level of foothold. Those judgements got you by the short & curlies dude. They've made you their bitch.  The way you describe it, Hitler could be a good example of what it means to succumb to divine flow. you need to re-assess a few things there methinks. |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Sept 22, 2018 23:54:52 GMT
Of course I see wrongness in subjecting animals to fear and pain and suffering. I see wrongness in subjecting trees and plants to harmful energy too! I see wrongness in most of the way we live, because most of it IS causing fear and pain and suffering to others in the name of 'profit' (though actually, at the highest level, it's less about 'profit' and more about 'control') Every moment of your day is harming people in some way. I trust that the intuitive guidance is ultimately leading us away from mass pain, fear and suffering....and soon. But we can't step outside of the system, so I am harming people every time I turn the lights on. Being sat here on the internet is causing harm. I am harming all the time, as are you. So the best I can do is trust the guidance. Anyone that challenges the system in place is going to be a hypocrite as I said. But so what? I'm okay with being a hypocrite because I still trust that the actions I take are leading to goodness. A Catholic priest that abuses isn't going to be trusting in intuitive guidance, because trusting that guidance requires the dissolution of ego. I am very sure that these priests are deeply in ego. I see strong ego in your philosophical position, so I don't believe you are trusting intuitive guidance. Even if I accept that you are vegan for compassionate reasons, it MAY not be the highest form of compassion. Your IDEAS of how compassion should express, may not match what your guidance suggests. In regard to the quote, I regard my actions as the highest choice available to me in that moment. It may not be the IDEAL choice, but ideal choices aren't always available. Ideally, what I eat causes no harm to animal or vegetable or tree. Ideally, every action I take is entirely harmless. So when you suggest then that in my 'not knowing' I must therefore be relating to others in an insensitive manner, what does that mean exactly? ...what's an example of how that insensitivity would manifest? You seem to be acknowledging that behavior really doesn't matter because every action is harmful. I'm saying that in the system we live in, all our actions are going to come with some harm. But that doesn't mean that our actions ALSO can't come with some good. I'm suggesting the most good we can do is follow intuitive guidance, even if that means we continue to harm others. And getting in the car and driving is harming others! Your knowing of 'I' and not-knowing of 'others' is a problem mainly because you believe IN the duality of 'I' and 'other'. The belief in this duality creates an illusion of being separate. This illusion also creates an insensitivity. I am very sensitive, so much so, that I am drawn to people when they are thinking about me. It's like a mind-meld, and energy-meld. When someone's attention is on me, their consciousness and my consciousness become 'fused'. This is actually normal and natural, and how it works in higher densities (it's like telepathy), but it's not always easy in third density, because not everyone thinks nice thoughts about me hehe. But currently, when talking to most folks, you won't experience that mind-meld....that fusion....because you maintain the duality of 'I' and 'other'. |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by Andrew on Sept 23, 2018 0:01:41 GMT
Wrong. Trusting in intuitive guidance may have us taking strong positions of resistance. It may have us judging. It may have us disallowing and not-accepting. It may have us efforting at something. Intuitive guidance isn't always ideal (and especially isn't always your silly spiritual ideal lol). Trusting in intuitive guidance means that we accept our positions of resistance, we accept our judgments when made, we accept the disallowing, we accept the hypocrisies. We don't judge those aspect of our personality, or our expression. To be clear, the third density world is not broken. It is third density. Try to understand that. "Surrendering to divine flow" does not mean efforting, judging, dis-allowing or not-accepting in any way that is substantive enough that it could affect an entire world view, as you demonstrate. If you had truly accepted your positions of resistance and your judgements as they initially arose, they'd never have gained this level of foothold. Those judgements got you by the short & curlies dude. They've made you their bitch. The way you describe it, Hitler could be a good example of what it means to succumb to divine flow. you need to re-assess a few things there methinks. My world view is factual. It's how third density operates. To be clear, there are many amazing things about third density experience, but we should be absolutely clear about its nature. I know it seems to you that the judgements have 'got me by the short and curlies', but you only see me on the forum. And here, on the forum, my consciousness is fused to yours, and because you are determined to see me a particular way, to an extent I become that person. I don't particularly LIKE being the person that I am here on the forum, it's not IDEAL for me. It's still appropriate though from time to time to be here. So the resistance, judgement, non-acceptance that you see me demonstrate, still comes from a place of divine guidance. Again, it's not IDEAL for me, but it is what it is. If you want to see me that way, then I have to be that way to an extent, and in the meantime, I will continue to show you the nature of third density reality. Oh, and Hitler was deep in ego. Obvs. |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 23, 2018 0:59:38 GMT
I'm saying that in the system we live in, all our actions are going to come with some harm. But that doesn't mean that our actions ALSO can't come with some good. I'm suggesting the most good we can do is follow intuitive guidance, even if that means we continue to harm others. And getting in the car and driving is harming others! Indeed it can be said that with every small, seemingly insignificant action, some-thing is harmed. I have trouble gardening with a trowel, as I really don't like injuring the worms that live in the dirt. That said, the higher impetus to garden, generally takes precedence. That said, there are certain judgements/values and congruent actions that are no brainers. Yes, sometimes it's almost impossible to avoid harm, and sometimes values compete in a way that has one coming out on top, but sometimes the path is very clear and very easy. For one who highly values the well being of sentient beings, the impetus to eat vegan is one of those no-brainers. If one is highly sensitive to the idea of animal's suffering, the intuitive impetus will be towards a diet absent dead animals. So long as there's clarity, It's very simple. Very easy. How is it you conclude that I believe in the duality of I and other, if I see all otherness as empty and devoid of substance? You're seeing a belief where there is none. You still don't grasp what's referenced by 'the inherent emptiness of all experiential content.' Believe it or not Andrew, even despite my clarity that all experience is empty, I too experience the same intuitive sensitivity you describe. After many years of doing so, I continue to make a very good living doing intuitive readings, and in my repeat clients and referrals, I receive feedback that appears to support this sensitivity. Contrary to what you think, What one experiences, what appears in the dream/story, is not dependent upon believing in the substance of those appearances. My day to day experience is rife with synchronicity, premonition, intuition, psychic-empathy, this very 'melding' that you describe. Sometimes when it comes to immediate family and very close friends, I'm almost 'too' sensitive....receiving feelings of all parties involved in their stories/dramas,to the degree it interferes with sleep and focus. That said, I know if my own interest were not there, it wouldn't be happening. The difference though between you and I, is that I see it all for the empty experiential content that it is. I'm not going to use it to try to say something True about existence itself. |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 23, 2018 1:11:35 GMT
"Surrendering to divine flow" does not mean efforting, judging, dis-allowing or not-accepting in any way that is substantive enough that it could affect an entire world view, as you demonstrate. If you had truly accepted your positions of resistance and your judgements as they initially arose, they'd never have gained this level of foothold. Those judgements got you by the short & curlies dude. They've made you their bitch. The way you describe it, Hitler could be a good example of what it means to succumb to divine flow. you need to re-assess a few things there methinks. My world view is factual. It's how third density operates. To be clear, there are many amazing things about third density experience, but we should be absolutely clear about its nature. I know it seems to you that the judgements have 'got me by the short and curlies', but you only see me on the forum. And here, on the forum, my consciousness is fused to yours, and because you are determined to see me a particular way, to an extent I become that person. I don't particularly LIKE being the person that I am here on the forum, it's not IDEAL for me. It's still appropriate though from time to time to be here. So the resistance, judgement, non-acceptance that you see me demonstrate, still comes from a place of divine guidance. Again, it's not IDEAL for me, but it is what it is. If you want to see me that way, then I have to be that way to an extent, and in the meantime, I will continue to show you the nature of third density reality. Oh, and Hitler was deep in ego. Obvs. You entertain some really strange ideas. This whole 'third density' bizness just seems to be another in a long line of previous ideas that you've glommed onto like your life depends upon it. yet another flavor of the month. If you don't 'like' being here and you feel it's not ideal, then there's something very strange about the fact that you continue to come here. In clarity, there is congruence between likes, judgements, preferences, what is deemed to be ideal, AND arising impetus to action. When there's an absence of congruency, that's what E references as 'spit mind.' It's saying you want and value one thing, but then feel compelled to the point of action, to do another. It's what you're all about. To hear you talk, you'd think you were a slave to some master who has you doing his bidding. If you feel something is not good for you, and yet you keep doing it, there's something going on there that needs to be seen. A lack of clarity. The world you experience as unbalanced, will shift if and when clarity reigns. If an when there is congruence between said values and arising impetus to action....and not until. So long as your stance is one of making excuses for why impetus to act is not congruent with said values, the world you seek will continue to evade you. |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 23, 2018 21:40:43 GMT
There are many layers of lies, sure. This world hasn't 'gone bad', it's been a third density world, and perfectly so. A third density world by definition, will come with lies. It is our role to challenge the lies....not just the deep philosophical lies, but also the social-economic-institutional lies.The Abe-Hicks definition of 'economics' is wonderful. Challenge them how? And then what? Despite your insistence that the world needs to become more loving, more kind, despite your own awareness of and discomfort with the way animals are treated in food processing, it hasn't made one iota of difference in terms of your continued meat consumption and thus, your support of the industry...so how do you see actual change happening with regards to this idea that it's your role to challenge the lies? So when it comes to all the other problems/wrongs you are intent upon illuminating to others, what's the end game? What do you hope to accomplish if not an actual shift in behavior? This is the part of your stance that I don't get. Is it good enough as far as you're concerned to just have everyone seeing that they're supporting a corrupt system in the choices they make, if those same choices continue? So long as everyone is aware of what they do and are contributing to the pain of other sentient beings in an 'intuitive way', does that make it all ok? It just seems so strange to me that you are looking outwards at a world you deem to be unkind, insensitive, uncaring, callous, and you yourself are still knowingly engaging in behaviors that are very easy to change, that directly bring pain and fear to another. YOu say you are following your 'intuition' in doing so, but intuition towards what end exactly? Are you following inner guidance towards health.....towards some other end? I don't get it. You say you have no taste or craving for meat...and that you feel badly over what animals go through to land on your plate. This 'intuitive' guidance that speaks to you louder than appetite and louder than your feeings of compassion, what exactly is this intuitive guidance pulling you towards? |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969 
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Post by Enigma on Sept 23, 2018 23:14:02 GMT
Well, staring can feel intrusive or judgmental, but you don't seem to be talking about prolonged eye contact. Virtually every living creature responds to love with love, and to fear with fear, and no words are needed to convey the essence of that. People, and especially the lower animals, can see what you are being, whether or not they understand what they are seeing. Well said. Kids in my experience are usually very tuned into this. When my son was around 3ish - 4ish, he'd been taking swimming lessons and afterwards the kids and teachers all got into a big hot tub to warm up. The mom's would stand by, towels in hand. As we made our way to the change room after, my little guy explained how the swim teachers were putting on act, being extra nice to all the kids, because the parents were listening. I found that incredibly astute, and I think even if they can't necessarily formulate that observation in words like that, most kids are aware of that kind of thing....when they encounter authenticity vs. a lack thereof....and as you say, same can be said for animals. Oh, yeah, kids can see through all the manipulations that parents do when they think their kids are too young to catch on to what they're doing, and it shows in their faces even when they don't say anything. |
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You are the epitomy of what it means to resist the divine flow...just one example... "dimming the light of being" for the purpose of controlling what another feels/experiences. Oh yeah...there's that peaceful flowing along with what is in action. 
