Enigma
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Posts: 13,969 
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Post by Enigma on Sept 23, 2018 23:29:37 GMT
Well, staring can feel intrusive or judgmental, but you don't seem to be talking about prolonged eye contact. Virtually every living creature responds to love with love, and to fear with fear, and no words are needed to convey the essence of that. People, and especially the lower animals, can see what you are being, whether or not they understand what they are seeing. How long do you consider to be prolonged? The way I see it is that some people (more than others) are living a deep lie, and are stuck in that lie. It is painful for them. Now, I embody freedom to a relatively great extent, I'm not even bound to the tyranny of mortgage, debt, possessions or job...which is quite rare where I come from. I consider it inappropriate to compound their suffering, by rubbing my relative freedom in their face, and make them feel even worse. If I believe that truth/presence is something they need to see, then fine. Otherwise, I am happy to dim the light for them. Of course, this all happens very quickly, in the space of moments, I don't have to think about it, it happens without any effort or volition on my part. Just one of the reasons that I have spent so much time with so many animals in the last years is probably because light has to be dimmed less, though even then, it's not wholly the case, because animals have a loyalty to their owners and it's not always appropriate for me to get fully in the way of that. When my family leaves their life, they have to return to their family, and that's not something I ignore. By prolonged I mean long enough enough to make them wonder what sort of judgments you're making about them. I was imagining we were talking about relative strangers that you meet on the street or in a shop; peeps that would know little or nothing about your relative freedom. So you're referring to friends and acquaintances? I also thought we were talking about the power of your presence, not your life situation. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Sept 24, 2018 1:35:17 GMT
Accepting present moment experience does not equal knowing stuff about what appears beyond 'that' it appears. I've told you the reason; I am sensitive to the apparent sentience in animals.....the idea of animals experiencing fear and pain for something as insignificant as a taste preferences, doesn't sit well with me so I behave accordingly. Does your discomfort with eating animals have anything at all to do with their apparent fear/pain during the process of coming to your plate? If so, how can you (a dude who says he highly values caring, kindness, compassion) feel even a little bit ok with it? Following a vegan diet when your values align with that, is actually very easy these days. I agree, there are certain areas where it might be difficult to align behavior with values, due to various logistics, etc, that become difficult to escape/overcome, but this really is not one of them. I find it interesting that you have greater discomfort over the idea of other humans owning homes than you do about yourself consuming what you say you know with certainty to be, slaughtered 'sentient beings'. Seems you give yourself a pass on many issues, this issue of diet for sure, but very easily point your finger outwards at all the awful stuff you see others committing. How can you expect others to rise to the idea of your utopic world if you yourself can't even find alignment/congruence between what you say you value (your talk) and what you do (your walk)? Your point was that my absence of certain knowledge about others being sentient/experiencers (My Solipsism as you call it) must surely result in my being less sensitive towards others than one who knows. But right here, we have a case where I am clearly 'more' sensitive in an expressive way, to the apparent plight of sentient beings than you are. Go figure.  Why would I accept your explanation as to why you are vegan? I don't ask you those kinds of questions because I don't trust the veracity of your answers. I don't have greater discomfort over folks owning homes than I do animals/vegetables being commodified. All commodification is tyranny, and is based in a lie. I've already explained why I am a 'bit okay' with what I do. I trust intuitive guidance, and rationally I also understand that almost every action (perhaps even every action) we take, is a lie in the world we live. I point stuff out about the world to people like yourself not with the intention of making you feel bad (though it is appropriate for all of us to feel bad about some of the choices we make), but because I believe it's useful to be aware of the lies. At this point in time, the lies cannot be wholly avoided, but understanding them is a good first step. Flawful logic. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Sept 24, 2018 2:43:34 GMT
Just want to add for those reading along; I am not a member of the vegan police. I generally go about my food choices in a very quiet way, rarely talking about it, allowing others to choose food as they see fit. (My husband, although he loves animals, also loves a good steak and flat out admits, his taste for meat wins out..for the most part, I let him be). I wouldn't even be bringing this up but for Andrew's assertion that my absence of knowledge pertaining to other's experiencing, must necessarily result in a lack of caring compassion, lack of sensitivity. Even though the people and animals who appear in my story are abidingly understood/known to be empty dream-stuff, I still feel strong compassion and caring towards them to the degree that the resultant behaviors often reflect that. In fact, I'd say in some ways, the caring/compassion flows even more unfettered in that absence....it's hard to inflict blame upon a dream character. But even in my night time dreams, where I am fully lucid, knowing I am dreaming, compassion, caring for apparent pain/suffering in an appearing other impacts me. Why wouldn't it? The idea that seeing the inherent emptiness of all dream content, including the appearance of sentience, results in an absence of caring, is extremely misguided. In fact, Andrew is clearly demonstrating that a belief that he does know for certain that others are sentient, does not necessarily result in caring compassion that results in a shift in behavior. I thought I recognized you!  |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Sept 24, 2018 2:49:12 GMT
Just want to add for those reading along; I am not a member of the vegan police. I generally go about my food choices in a very quiet way, rarely talking about it, allowing others to choose food as they see fit. (My husband, although he loves animals, also loves a good steak and flat out admits, his taste for meat wins out..for the most part, I let him be). I wouldn't even be bringing this up but for Andrew's assertion that my absence of knowledge pertaining to other's experiencing, must necessarily result in a lack of caring compassion, lack of sensitivity. Even though the people and animals who appear in my story are abidingly understood/known to be empty dream-stuff, I still feel strong compassion and caring towards them to the degree that the resultant behaviors often reflect that. In fact, I'd say in some ways, the caring/compassion flows even more unfettered in that absence....it's hard to inflict blame upon a dream character. But even in my night time dreams, where I am fully lucid, knowing I am dreaming, compassion, caring for apparent pain/suffering in an appearing other impacts me. Why wouldn't it? The idea that seeing the inherent emptiness of all dream content, including the appearance of sentience, results in an absence of caring, is extremely misguided. In fact, Andrew is clearly demonstrating that a belief that he does know for certain that others are sentient, does not necessarily result in caring compassion that results in a shift in behavior. You are judging the way that compassion expresses itself. The highest form of compassion is to trust fully in the intelligence of intuitive guidance.I don't believe that you are compassionate because I believe your philosophy is deeply egocentric and separating (solipsism). I pray to Allah that trust isn't misplaced.  |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 24, 2018 2:54:26 GMT
Just want to add for those reading along; I am not a member of the vegan police. I generally go about my food choices in a very quiet way, rarely talking about it, allowing others to choose food as they see fit. (My husband, although he loves animals, also loves a good steak and flat out admits, his taste for meat wins out..for the most part, I let him be). I wouldn't even be bringing this up but for Andrew's assertion that my absence of knowledge pertaining to other's experiencing, must necessarily result in a lack of caring compassion, lack of sensitivity. Even though the people and animals who appear in my story are abidingly understood/known to be empty dream-stuff, I still feel strong compassion and caring towards them to the degree that the resultant behaviors often reflect that. In fact, I'd say in some ways, the caring/compassion flows even more unfettered in that absence....it's hard to inflict blame upon a dream character. But even in my night time dreams, where I am fully lucid, knowing I am dreaming, compassion, caring for apparent pain/suffering in an appearing other impacts me. Why wouldn't it? The idea that seeing the inherent emptiness of all dream content, including the appearance of sentience, results in an absence of caring, is extremely misguided. In fact, Andrew is clearly demonstrating that a belief that he does know for certain that others are sentient, does not necessarily result in caring compassion that results in a shift in behavior. I thought I recognized you!  |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 30, 2018 23:30:01 GMT
Figured this exchange and post of yours E, belonged on this particular thread, as indeed the whole, "I've got a bad habit" business is yet another way we bamboozle ourselves into excusing a lack of clarity as to what's actually goin on.
Yup. Holding to the The idea that I am powerless against the pull to engage in a particular behavior I've deemed to be bad or wrong is itself just a means to continue the behavior.
If/when your interest in the cessation of a particular behavior is stronger/more pronounced than the interest in engaging the behavior, the behavior will cease. Simple. Thus, self honesty/sincerity is of the utmost importance.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Oct 1, 2018 1:40:25 GMT
Figured this exchange and post of yours E, belonged on this particular thread, as indeed the whole, "I've got a bad habit" business is yet another way we bamboozle ourselves into excusing a lack of clarity as to what's actually goin on. Yup. Holding to the The idea that I am powerless against the pull to engage in a particular behavior I've deemed to be bad or wrong is itself just a means to continue the behavior. If/when your interest in the cessation of a particular behavior is stronger/more pronounced than the interest in engaging the behavior, the behavior will cease. Simple. Thus, self honesty/sincerity is of the utmost importance. Zackly. You've probly heard the example I like to use. If you engaged in self flagellation for 20 years, believing it would help you spiritually, and suddenly realized the foolishness of that, it would stop immediately. You might absentmindedly reach for the whip a couple of times, but that would be the extent of the 'habitual behavior'. Nobody consciously does something they don't want to do. |
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 4,394
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Post by muttley on Oct 2, 2018 2:36:03 GMT
Figured this exchange and post of yours E, belonged on this particular thread, as indeed the whole, "I've got a bad habit" business is yet another way we bamboozle ourselves into excusing a lack of clarity as to what's actually goin on. Yup. Holding to the The idea that I am powerless against the pull to engage in a particular behavior I've deemed to be bad or wrong is itself just a means to continue the behavior. If/when your interest in the cessation of a particular behavior is stronger/more pronounced than the interest in engaging the behavior, the behavior will cease. Simple. Thus, self honesty/sincerity is of the utmost importance. much? |
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 4,394
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Post by muttley on Oct 2, 2018 2:42:15 GMT
Figured this exchange and post of yours E, belonged on this particular thread, as indeed the whole, "I've got a bad habit" business is yet another way we bamboozle ourselves into excusing a lack of clarity as to what's actually goin on. Yup. Holding to the The idea that I am powerless against the pull to engage in a particular behavior I've deemed to be bad or wrong is itself just a means to continue the behavior. If/when your interest in the cessation of a particular behavior is stronger/more pronounced than the interest in engaging the behavior, the behavior will cease. Simple. Thus, self honesty/sincerity is of the utmost importance. Zackly. You've probly heard the example I like to use. If you engaged in self flagellation for 20 years, believing it would help you spiritually, and suddenly realized the foolishness of that, it would stop immediately. You might absentmindedly reach for the whip a couple of times, but that would be the extent of the 'habitual behavior'. Nobody consciously does something they don't want to do. That's a rather extreme hypothetical. 
I gotta' habit of watching football. If anything, it's gotten more intense over the years.  When I used the aphorism, what I was referring to in particular are conditioned modes of thought and emotion that we're not conscious of as they're happening. Most political thought and opinion is that way, for instance. To my eye, the kinds of "snapping" the maniac was referring to was of various flavors. Some of it was just pure personality, and much of personality is comprised of habit, especially the stylistic elements of it. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Oct 2, 2018 14:06:17 GMT
Zackly. You've probly heard the example I like to use. If you engaged in self flagellation for 20 years, believing it would help you spiritually, and suddenly realized the foolishness of that, it would stop immediately. You might absentmindedly reach for the whip a couple of times, but that would be the extent of the 'habitual behavior'. Nobody consciously does something they don't want to do. That's a rather extreme hypothetical.
I gotta' habit of watching football. If anything, it's gotten more intense over the years. When I used the aphorism, what I was referring to in particular are conditioned modes of thought and emotion that we're not conscious of as they're happening. Most political thought and opinion is that way, for instance. To my eye, the kinds of "snapping" the maniac was referring to was of various flavors. Some of it was just pure personality, and much of personality is comprised of habit, especially the stylistic elements of it. Well, the unpleasant nature of the hypo makes it clear that we do what we want to rather than what we're programmed to do, given a conscious state of mind. |
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