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Post by Figgles on Sept 21, 2018 20:06:15 GMT
There's been some talk on ST about the necessity for "camouflage." Andrew described it this way: Not only is this seeming need to 'put on an act' of sorts not necessary, but if it's present, it's a clear indicator of the presence of fear. The following Adya quote seems to speak directly to Andrew's above: "Most human beings actually have an imprinting--not only in their minds, but in their bodies and their emotions--that if they are honest, if they are real, something bad is going to happen. Somebody is not going to like it. They fear they won't be able to control their environment if they tell the truth." He really nails it with his reference to 'control.' And, furthermore, The fear of not being able to control your environment is inextricably tied to the very idea that you 'can' control things. Andrew says it above so clearly; "I tend not to look people in the eye too much because I don't want to intimidate them." What he's really saying there is that he fears the responses of others, and thus, feels the need to try to control his interactions with them, but of course, underlying all of that is his mistaken belief that he as a person, actually can control any of that. Andrew, I'd love to talk about this with you if you're up for it.  |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Sept 21, 2018 20:25:13 GMT
No, I don't want to, I don't feel it would benefit either of us. You already have your perspective on it, and so do I.
The only thing I will say is that the general way I am with people boils down to my belief about how it will serve. Presence can be frightening for people, and I don't want to frighten people unless I see an indication from them that they are willing to 'go there'. Even with you, I've made a judgement about where I believe you are ready to 'go' or 'not go', and I don't feel it is appropriate to push on something that I don't believe wants to move.
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Post by Figgles on Sept 21, 2018 21:10:13 GMT
No, I don't want to, I don't feel it would benefit either of us. You already have your perspective on it, and so do I. The only thing I will say is that the general way I am with people boils down to my belief about how it will serve. Presence can be frightening for people, and I don't want to frighten people unless I see an indication from them that they are willing to 'go there'. Even with you, I've made a judgement about where I believe you are ready to 'go' or 'not go', and I don't feel it is appropriate to push on something that I don't believe wants to move. Your beliefs about how it will serve, hinge upon your misguided belief in a separate world 'out there.' How do you define 'presence' so that you arrive at such an erroneous conclusion that "presence can be frightening for people"? What I found most surprising was that you said you sometimes don this 'camouflage' during interactions with your children. I promise you, when a child is feeling the need to cloak themselves in armor, to put on an act that obscures authenticity, the last thing they need is an adult in their midst modelling the same fear based behavior....rather, a child who is feeling the need to hide his authentic self, will be much more likely to let down that guard, in the mist of one who is guarding nothing, hiding nothing. It's that absence of pretense, absence of fear, presence of being itself, that gives the other permission to be authentic...to drop the guard. & Indeed, you've asserted some of your self help beliefs/suggestions in conversation with me. That's a whole different animal than what I'm suggesting to you; To become sincerely, unabashedly honest in looking at your deepest beliefs/thoughts/feelings. Fwiw, My disinterest in looking into stuff like ancestral healings and such (if that's what you're referencing when you talk about my readiness or lack thereof to 'go' somewhere you deem to be important to go to) for the most part, has it's basis in the fact that I don't actually perceive the presence of a problem that needs to be fixed or solved, but also, those types of dog and pony shows have been seen through here for quite some time. |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Sept 21, 2018 21:18:29 GMT
No, I don't want to, I don't feel it would benefit either of us. You already have your perspective on it, and so do I. The only thing I will say is that the general way I am with people boils down to my belief about how it will serve. Presence can be frightening for people, and I don't want to frighten people unless I see an indication from them that they are willing to 'go there'. Even with you, I've made a judgement about where I believe you are ready to 'go' or 'not go', and I don't feel it is appropriate to push on something that I don't believe wants to move. Your beliefs about how it will serve, hinge upon your misguided belief in a separate world 'out there.' How do you define 'presence' so that you arrive at such an erroneous conclusion that "presence can be frightening for people"? What I found most surprising was that you said you sometimes don this 'camouflage' during interactions with your children. I promise you, when a child is feeling the need to cloak themselves in armor, to put on an act that obscures authenticity, the last thing they need is an adult in their midst modelling the same fear based behavior....rather, a child who is feeling the need to hide his authentic self, will be much more likely to let down that guard, in the mist of one who is guarding nothing, hiding nothing. It's that absence of pretense, absence of fear, presence of being itself, that gives the other permission to be authentic...to drop the guard. & Indeed, you've asserted some of your self help beliefs/suggestions in conversation with me. That's a whole different animal than what I'm suggesting to you; To become sincerely, unabashedly honest in looking at your deepest beliefs/thoughts/feelings. Fwiw, My disinterest in looking into stuff like ancestral healings and such (if that's what you're referencing when you talk about my readiness or lack thereof to 'go' somewhere you deem to be important to go to) for the most part, has it's basis in the fact that I don't actually perceive the presence of a problem that needs to be fixed or solved, but also, those types of dog and pony shows have been seen through here for quite some time. Yes I believe there is a world and that there are humans, cats and dogs in the world. I camouflage a bit for my children usually only when they are with friends. Again, I make a judgement as to when it is appropriate. Have you ever had someone attracted to you, but you know that it's not going to happen for them in the way they would like? So, to a extent, you slightly subdue what it is that they are drawn to? That's somewhat similar to what I am describing in regard to Presence. I disagree that what everyone universally needs from another is Presence. In fact I consider it quite cruel to offer Presence to someone that isn't ready for it. Oh, I wasn't referring to healings etc, or anything to do with medicine, health etc. |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 21, 2018 21:52:50 GMT
Yes I believe there is a world and that there are humans, cats and dogs in the world. It's one thing to believe in a world that gets experienced....But for you, that world is more than just experiential. You mistakingly assign as substance to it, that does not actually exist. It's that assignation of substance that has you being fearful of being 'too present' at times with others. What exactly does that mean? how exactly is it that you 'hold back' from being fully present, fully authentic? Is it a specific way of being or behavior that you squelch for the purpose of not making these other children uncomfy? True authenticity is not at all scary to others. More like, true authenticity gives others an invitation, or in some cases, you could even say 'a pass' to BE authentic themselves. No,I haven't. The very idea of trying to decipher precisely what it is that another found attractive in me, and then purposefully, consciously squelching or subduing that, just sounds so very 'false.' What you're describing is nothing more than donning a mask to obscure authenticity. It actually sounds pretty crazy to me. To say that one is 'not ready for presence' is akin to saying that one is not ready for acceptance/allowance/unconditional love. The very sense of 'not being ready' is itself a call for just that. To 'be present' and fully authentic with another is simply to be with them, absent falsity. How could that ever be 'cruel'? |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 21, 2018 22:05:01 GMT
I'm curious Andrew, do you see yourself in the following Adya quote?
"Most human beings actually have an imprinting--not only in their minds, but in their bodies and their emotions--that if they are honest, if they are real, something bad is going to happen. Somebody is not going to like it. They fear they won't be able to control their environment if they tell the truth."
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Sept 21, 2018 22:08:55 GMT
Yes I believe there is a world and that there are humans, cats and dogs in the world. It's one thing to believe in a world that gets experienced....But for you, that world is more than just experiential. You mistakingly assign as substance to it, that does not actually exist. It's that assignation of substance that has you being fearful of being 'too present' at times with others. What exactly does that mean? how exactly is it that you 'hold back' from being fully present, fully authentic? Is it a specific way of being or behavior that you squelch for the purpose of not making these other children uncomfy? True authenticity is not at all scary to others. More like, true authenticity gives others an invitation, or in some cases, you could even say 'a pass' to BE authentic themselves. No,I haven't. The very idea of trying to decipher precisely what it is that another found attractive in me, and then purposefully, consciously squelching or subduing that, just sounds so very 'false.' What you're describing is nothing more than donning a mask to obscure authenticity. It actually sounds pretty crazy to me. To say that one is 'not ready for presence' is akin to saying that one is not ready for acceptance/allowance/unconditional love. The very sense of 'not being ready' is itself a call for just that. To 'be present' and fully authentic with another is simply to be with them, absent falsity. How could that ever be 'cruel'? I've explained to you my position as best I can, I don't believe it would serve right now for me to go any further than I've gone (and I already said more than I thought I would). |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 21, 2018 22:54:15 GMT
It's one thing to believe in a world that gets experienced....But for you, that world is more than just experiential. You mistakingly assign as substance to it, that does not actually exist. It's that assignation of substance that has you being fearful of being 'too present' at times with others. What exactly does that mean? how exactly is it that you 'hold back' from being fully present, fully authentic? Is it a specific way of being or behavior that you squelch for the purpose of not making these other children uncomfy? True authenticity is not at all scary to others. More like, true authenticity gives others an invitation, or in some cases, you could even say 'a pass' to BE authentic themselves. No,I haven't. The very idea of trying to decipher precisely what it is that another found attractive in me, and then purposefully, consciously squelching or subduing that, just sounds so very 'false.' What you're describing is nothing more than donning a mask to obscure authenticity. It actually sounds pretty crazy to me. To say that one is 'not ready for presence' is akin to saying that one is not ready for acceptance/allowance/unconditional love. The very sense of 'not being ready' is itself a call for just that. To 'be present' and fully authentic with another is simply to be with them, absent falsity. How could that ever be 'cruel'? I've explained to you my position as best I can, I don't believe it would serve right now for me to go any further than I've gone (and I already said more than I thought I would). You are afraid to go further because it means you have to take a deep look inwards. It's that very hesitancy/reluctance to 'tell the truth...take an unabashed, honest look into what's happening' that keeps the fear alive. Imagine; Walking into a room of strangers and feeling no need to put on a mask, to be any specific way at all....just to authentically and without thought about it, "BE." It really is possible. And I guarantee, if that were to happen, you would not find folks scurrying away in fear at all. And I'd love if you could answer this: I'm curious Andrew, do you see yourself in the following Adya quote? "Most human beings actually have an imprinting--not only in their minds, but in their bodies and their emotions--that if they are honest, if they are real, something bad is going to happen. Somebody is not going to like it. They fear they won't be able to control their environment if they tell the truth." |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Sept 21, 2018 23:01:55 GMT
I've explained to you my position as best I can, I don't believe it would serve right now for me to go any further than I've gone (and I already said more than I thought I would). You are afraid to go further because it means you have to take a deep look inwards. It's that very hesitancy/reluctance to 'tell the truth...take an unabashed, honest look into what's happening' that keeps the fear alive. Imagine; Walking into a room of strangers and feeling no need to put on a mask, to be any specific way at all....just to authentically and without thought about it, "BE." It really is possible. And I guarantee, if that were to happen, you would not find folks scurrying away in fear at all. And I'd love if you could answer this: I'm curious Andrew, do you see yourself in the following Adya quote? "Most human beings actually have an imprinting--not only in their minds, but in their bodies and their emotions--that if they are honest, if they are real, something bad is going to happen. Somebody is not going to like it. They fear they won't be able to control their environment if they tell the truth." I've said my bit, and I have nothing more for you. |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 21, 2018 23:19:53 GMT
You are afraid to go further because it means you have to take a deep look inwards. It's that very hesitancy/reluctance to 'tell the truth...take an unabashed, honest look into what's happening' that keeps the fear alive. Imagine; Walking into a room of strangers and feeling no need to put on a mask, to be any specific way at all....just to authentically and without thought about it, "BE." It really is possible. And I guarantee, if that were to happen, you would not find folks scurrying away in fear at all. And I'd love if you could answer this: I'm curious Andrew, do you see yourself in the following Adya quote? "Most human beings actually have an imprinting--not only in their minds, but in their bodies and their emotions--that if they are honest, if they are real, something bad is going to happen. Somebody is not going to like it. They fear they won't be able to control their environment if they tell the truth." I've said my bit, and I have nothing more for you. You're afraid to keep going. That fear needs to be looked at. |
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