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Post by Figgles on Mar 9, 2018 16:50:55 GMT
Yeah, I didn't get why he used that term....very poor description of what I see to be just a basic disagreement that may or may not have differing definitions contributing to it. Isn't 'he said she said' the kind of argument that happens when a guy and gal are disputing whether or not there was consent?  (I found some funny pics to post, but in this case, figured it was kinder to spare you the visuals  ) Oh, I'm always up for some funny pics. The explanation I settled on is when Andy and I go back and forth quoting each other and ourselves trying to correct misunderstandings or perceived misunderstandings. It's true that it happens a lot. (I will without a doubt be pasting this on my teens bedroom walls....  )  |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by Enigma on Mar 9, 2018 23:56:20 GMT
Yes. There's something I'd like to convey but I don't know how. When these realizations are embodied, there is, in a way, only Love happening. There's no need to know about the status of an other as relationship is not with some other. It only occurred to me recently that folks need to know if another is 'real' or if another suffers before Love can be allowed to move. You conveyed that well. Perfectly said. And yes, clearly, for some that knowledge has to be firmly in place for precisely the reason you state....Love doesn't move otherwise. Cool. I wasn't sure how that was going to come across. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by Enigma on Mar 10, 2018 0:00:30 GMT
Oh, I'm always up for some funny pics. The explanation I settled on is when Andy and I go back and forth quoting each other and ourselves trying to correct misunderstandings or perceived misunderstandings. It's true that it happens a lot. (I will without a doubt be pasting this on my teens bedroom walls.... ) Hehe. What would Jesus do!? |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 28, 2018 16:51:34 GMT
An excellent post ZD.
I find those who insist upon equating arising sadness or any sense of loss with 'attachment' and thus, the presence of a false sense of identity, are completely glossing over the fact that when an arising sadness or sense of loss is accompanied by acceptance and equanimity, because of what's been realized, arising sadness...a sense of loss, is not such a big deal..it's unproblematic.. it's not the equivalent of 'suffering.'
I see those folks saying, yeah sure, the sorrow may not devolve down into abject 'grief,' "But"...as though that absence of devolvement down into grief is some small inconsequential thing. It's not. It's everything. It truly is the difference between freedom and suffering.
The momentary arising of a feeling of sadness is never a problem. It only becomes a problem when it's regarded to be such, and it becomes anchored into an ongoing experience, and that's precisely what happens when self-identification is in play.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 28, 2018 17:12:18 GMT
Engagement with the story of life continues on once identification is absent. Being awake to the unfolding dream does not mean losing all interest in the content of it. Just because I am fully awake to the dream/story does not mean that I won't/can't feel a sense of sadness when a facet of it that I enjoyed, ceases. The absence of attachment, the absence of false identification does not mean the end of emotional engagement with or emotional responsiveness to the content of the story. A momentary arising sense of sorrow is entirely unproblematic when there is no 'person' in play to judge it and say it is wrong. One can be clear on the fundamental perfection of it all and still momentarily feel an arising of surface sadness. So long as that fundamental seeing abides, there is no danger of the sorrow spiraling down into suffering. Suffering after all, means losing sight of that fundamental perfection. Here you are doing precisely what I described in my previous post. Although you call it a truly wondrous thing, You reference the absence of devolvement into grief as though it's no big deal. It IS a huge deal. That line between engagement with the story vs. being lost to the story is quite simply the difference between suffering and freedom. Freedom does not mean freedom from caring about and engaging with the story of life...it means freedom from being lost within/to the story...freedom from attachment to the story, including the 'me' character...freedom from suffering. A momentary arising of sadness, is not suffering...it's not a problem at all. Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/5061/suffering?page=89#ixzz5B3zQ72pe |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by Enigma on Mar 28, 2018 23:03:51 GMT
Engagement with the story of life continues on once identification is absent. Being awake to the unfolding dream does not mean losing all interest in the content of it. Just because I am fully awake to the dream/story does not mean that I won't/can't feel a sense of sadness when a facet of it that I enjoyed, ceases. The absence of attachment, the absence of false identification does not mean the end of emotional engagement with or emotional responsiveness to the content of the story. A momentary arising sense of sorrow is entirely unproblematic when there is no 'person' in play to judge it and say it is wrong. One can be clear on the fundamental perfection of it all and still momentarily feel an arising of surface sadness. So long as that fundamental seeing abides, there is no danger of the sorrow spiraling down into suffering. Suffering after all, means losing sight of that fundamental perfection. Here you are doing precisely what I described in my previous post. Although you call it a truly wondrous thing, You reference the absence of devolvement into grief as though it's no big deal. It IS a huge deal. That line between engagement with the story vs. being lost to the story is quite simply the difference between suffering and freedom.
Freedom does not mean freedom from caring about and engaging with the story of life...it means freedom from being lost within/to the story...freedom from attachment to the story, including the 'me' character...freedom from suffering. A momentary arising of sadness, is not suffering...it's not a problem at all. Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/5061/suffering?page=89#ixzz5B3zQ72peZacly. This is why I talk about the 'point of suffering', and I mean to imply it only happens under particular circumstances when mind gets caught up in the story. There are many things that suffering is not, and it can be useful to identify those things. |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 28, 2018 23:23:47 GMT
Engagement with the story of life continues on once identification is absent. Being awake to the unfolding dream does not mean losing all interest in the content of it. Just because I am fully awake to the dream/story does not mean that I won't/can't feel a sense of sadness when a facet of it that I enjoyed, ceases. The absence of attachment, the absence of false identification does not mean the end of emotional engagement with or emotional responsiveness to the content of the story. A momentary arising sense of sorrow is entirely unproblematic when there is no 'person' in play to judge it and say it is wrong. One can be clear on the fundamental perfection of it all and still momentarily feel an arising of surface sadness. So long as that fundamental seeing abides, there is no danger of the sorrow spiraling down into suffering. Suffering after all, means losing sight of that fundamental perfection. Here you are doing precisely what I described in my previous post. Although you call it a truly wondrous thing, You reference the absence of devolvement into grief as though it's no big deal. It IS a huge deal. That line between engagement with the story vs. being lost to the story is quite simply the difference between suffering and freedom.
Freedom does not mean freedom from caring about and engaging with the story of life...it means freedom from being lost within/to the story...freedom from attachment to the story, including the 'me' character...freedom from suffering. A momentary arising of sadness, is not suffering...it's not a problem at all. Read more: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/thread/5061/suffering?page=89#ixzz5B3zQ72peZacly. This is why I talk about the 'point of suffering', and I mean to imply it only happens under particular circumstances when mind gets caught up in the story. There are many things that suffering is not, and it can be useful to identify those things. Yup. Hugely important in the 'suffering' conversation. I distinctly recall a particular argument with you on ST, years ago, where my point was that IF sadness is arising in a given moment, then 'a problem' has already been identified.....thus, to go on to say that arising sadness is not problematic, means you missed the first bus and are denying it ever came. But I am now so clearly seeing that if there is a clear seeing that regardless of what arises on the surface things, all is fundamentally absent flaw, limitation, or problem, a moment of sadness is really just a moment of feeling engaged with the story. No problem at all unless mind gets caught up in that story...in that sadness. One can both feel sad about something that happened in the story/dream, AND remain aware that it's all a story/dream. Some folks get stuck in the belief that seeing it's all a story/dream means that you no longer care at all about it. That's just not so. You care, but you remain aware. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by Enigma on Mar 29, 2018 2:09:58 GMT
Zacly. This is why I talk about the 'point of suffering', and I mean to imply it only happens under particular circumstances when mind gets caught up in the story. There are many things that suffering is not, and it can be useful to identify those things. Yup. Hugely important in the 'suffering' conversation. I distinctly recall a particular argument with you on ST, years ago, where my point was that IF sadness is arising in a given moment, then 'a problem' has already been identified.....thus, to go on to say that arising sadness is not problematic, means you missed the first bus and are denying it ever came. But I am now so clearly seeing that if there is a clear seeing that regardless of what arises on the surface things, all is fundamentally absent flaw, limitation, or problem, a moment of sadness is really just a moment of feeling engaged with the story. No problem at all unless mind gets caught up in that story...in that sadness. One can both feel sad about something that happened in the story/dream, AND remain aware that it's all a story/dream. Some folks get stuck in the belief that seeing it's all a story/dream means that you no longer care at all about it. That's just not so. You care, but you remain aware. Cool. On a more subtle level, God likes to feel, and so he created a world of feeling, and he makes no judgments about ones he likes and ones he doesn't. Sadness has a certain sweetness to it when mind doesn't turn it into a stifling depression. Fear has an enervating sharpness to it when mind doesn't turn it into an encompassing terror. The simple, unmitigated movement of all feeling has a quality of aliveness to it, which any skydiver or mountain climber well knows. |
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Post by Figgles on Mar 31, 2018 0:45:23 GMT
Yup. Hugely important in the 'suffering' conversation. I distinctly recall a particular argument with you on ST, years ago, where my point was that IF sadness is arising in a given moment, then 'a problem' has already been identified.....thus, to go on to say that arising sadness is not problematic, means you missed the first bus and are denying it ever came. But I am now so clearly seeing that if there is a clear seeing that regardless of what arises on the surface things, all is fundamentally absent flaw, limitation, or problem, a moment of sadness is really just a moment of feeling engaged with the story. No problem at all unless mind gets caught up in that story...in that sadness. One can both feel sad about something that happened in the story/dream, AND remain aware that it's all a story/dream. Some folks get stuck in the belief that seeing it's all a story/dream means that you no longer care at all about it. That's just not so. You care, but you remain aware. Cool. On a more subtle level, God likes to feel, and so he created a world of feeling, and he makes no judgments about ones he likes and ones he doesn't. Sadness has a certain sweetness to it when mind doesn't turn it into a stifling depression. Fear has an enervating sharpness to it when mind doesn't turn it into an encompassing terror. The simple, unmitigated movement of all feeling has a quality of aliveness to it, which any skydiver or mountain climber well knows. Wonderful. That really hit home.  |
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Post by Figgles on Apr 3, 2018 22:06:40 GMT
Well said.  |
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