Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 12, 2018 20:28:52 GMT
Again Andrew, your 'agenda' is showing. You fear that delineating pain from suffering is going to result in abject cruelty, an absence of compassion for the pain, discomfort or fear that another is apparently experiencing, and that is coloring your view here, fueling your efforts to lump suffering and pain together. the true value in defining suffering as a mental/thought component, a conceptual overlay placed on top of pain, either physical or emotional, is in seeing first hand the role that mind plays in obscuring peace. I assure you, one who is at peace himself, continues to respond with a compassion and empathy that is wholly appropriate to the situation, in the event that another appears before him, who appears to be in pain.
It is actually those who get swept up within experience, lost to it, who then resort to further conceptualization to formulate excuses for why they are failing to behave kindly and respectfully to others. (Fwiw, I see you doing this yourself....you are so swept up in the idea of a broken world that needs fixing, that you've behaved unkindly, with a lack of consideration, to those right under you nose). 'Cept, no one is rationalizing away anything. If some-one, some-thing is appearing to be in pain, discomfort, withdrawing from an unwanted stimulus, and the one who sees that is present, clear, conscious, and not at all swept up in the story, the action taken will always be appropriately compassionate. To see the role mind/conceptualization plays in escalating and deepening basic pain either mental/emotional or physical, into 'suffering,' does not mean that one becomes insensitive to the apparent pain or suffering of another. If anything, I'd say it makes one more able to respond appropriately. This was my experience in the car-deer accident. As the Present absence/Being, I felt what needed to be done next to alleviate the deer's pain. The Being-feeling-thinking-doing process kicked in with regard to a solution upon seeing the outcome. There weren't a lot of options. I stayed until it came to a conclusion. It was a heart knowing that kept me there until the end. If you didn't believe the deer had been suffering, there would have been no doing what needed to be done to alleviate the deer's pain. And when it played on your mind afterwards, it wasn't the recollection of the deer in pain that arose, it was the recollection of the deer's suffering that arose. There is a level at which the deer chose to experience suffering so that you could have an intense experience. You should honour the deer for what it gave you rather than denying that it experienced suffering. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 12, 2018 20:38:15 GMT
If you didn't believe the deer had been suffering, there would have been no doing what needed to be done to alleviate the deer's pain. And when it played on your mind afterwards, it wasn't the recollection of the deer in pain that arose, it was the recollection of the deer's suffering that arose. There is a level at which the deer chose to experience suffering so that you could have an intense experience. You should honour the deer for what it gave you rather than denying that it experienced suffering. Not much into fantasy these days. You weren't there. I didn't have to be, you've written about it clearly and emotionally, but you are missing the point of what the deer has offered to you. Recognizing that the deer suffered, is recognizing that it loved you so much that it was willing to suffer and sacrifice for you. I don't expect non-spiritual folks to see it like that, but you do have that potential, but it means seeing the truth of this, rather than fantasizing that the deer didn't suffer at all. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 12, 2018 20:54:18 GMT
I didn't have to be, you've written about it clearly and emotionally, but you are missing the point of what the deer has offered to you. Recognizing that the deer suffered, is recognizing that it loved you so much that it was willing to suffer and sacrifice for you. I don't expect non-spiritual folks to see it like that, but you do have that potential, but it means seeing the truth of this, rather than fantasizing that the deer didn't suffer at all. I understand the role the deer played. I also understand Being-Feeling-Thinking-Doing. What I don't understand is the tone of your posts of late. Move on. There's nothing for you to see Here. If you don't understand that the deer suffered, then you don't understand the role the deer played. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 12, 2018 21:02:46 GMT
If you don't understand that the deer suffered, then you don't understand the role the deer played. Trill away.... I was 'invited' back here to discuss, and that's what I was doing. If you don't want to discuss that's okay, but making trite comments like this doesn't strike me as 'doing what needs to be done'. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 12, 2018 21:13:15 GMT
I was 'invited' back here to discuss, and that's what I was doing. If you don't want to discuss that's okay, but making trite comments like this doesn't strike me as 'doing what needs to be done'. Drop the mind and maybe you'll see things much more clearly. For God sakes, man, you're using a mind to attempt to recreate the experience of something you weren't even present to. You drop the mind and you will see you have bought into the absurd idea that the deer didn't suffer, so that you don't have to feel the emotional pain of that. Drop the denial and you will find the gift in the sacrifice. Currently you are dishonouring the deer and it's unpleasant to witness. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 12, 2018 21:24:06 GMT
You drop the mind and you will see you have bought into the absurd idea that the deer didn't suffer, so that you don't have to feel the emotional pain of that. Drop the denial and you will find the gift in the sacrifice. Currently you are dishonouring the deer and it's unpleasant to witness. This response is your 'calculating intellect' at work again. An attempt was made to point this out to you a few weeks ago. You didn't seem to like it being pointed out to you then, either. Hopefully you have a remedy for that. Try Being. This is another trite comment, another reaction from the mind. If you don't want to discuss the point about pain and suffering, that's up to you, but this is another example in which you are not 'doing what needs to be done'. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 12, 2018 21:38:52 GMT
This is another trite comment, another reaction from the mind. If you don't want to discuss the point about pain and suffering, that's up to you, but this is another example in which you are not 'doing what needs to be done'. Yada yada. You know what you can do with your projections.
You’re attempting to explain away an experience you weren’t even present to based on thought. This is insanity. I’m describing what took place in an experience, as the experiencer. ‘You” are using the incorrect instrument, mind, to understand what I know to be the truth of the matter. I know that deer can suffer, and based on your description of the incident and the fact that it played on your mind after, I know that that deer suffered. And if you are saying that the deer didn't suffer, then you are dishonouring the deer. Edit: And if you talk like this (the bolded), you won't walk away from this conversation in peace. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 12, 2018 21:44:39 GMT
Art, you have yet to say something in the last page that has any bit of wisdom in it.
I'll repeat something. That deer suffered (and sacrificed) so that you could experience something, maybe learn something. In saying that the deer didn't suffer, not only do you pass up the opportunity to grow, you dishonour the deer.
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 12, 2018 21:52:31 GMT
I know that deer can suffer, and based on your description of the incident and the fact that it played on your mind after, I know that that deer suffered. And if you are saying that the deer didn't suffer, then you are dishonouring the deer. Reads like you're in a rut, my friend. Your whole argument about something you were not present to is based on Maya. I know a heartfelt moment when I encounter one. What needed to be accomplished was accomplished. My argument isn't about the deer that you witnessed suffering, my argument is that animals can suffer. And I mean this in the most self-evident, intuitive and obvious way. |
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Andrew
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Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Feb 12, 2018 21:54:00 GMT
Art, you have yet to say something in the last page that has any bit of wisdom in it. I'll repeat something. That deer suffered (and sacrificed) so that you could experience something, maybe learn something. In saying that the deer didn't suffer, not only do you pass up the opportunity to grow, you dishonour the deer. Wisdom isn't a concept, Andrew. That's correct, but it can be expressed through concepts. In your last message, I began to see a glimmer, but previous to that, there was nothing. |
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