ZD's Mistake | Spiritualgab

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Aug 15, 2022 19:37:40 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 15, 2022 19:37:40 GMT

SDP:
The following is not to argue, just to give my view. There is an in-between-world. Oneness, imaginary-duality. In-between is essence. Essence is the individuation, the possible individuation. Oneness-essence-duality. Essence is in no way a SVP, but it is a not-imaginary something else (our word). That's why I said, it's up to you. Should have said, It's up to ~you~. Essence is the statue already-in-the-stone, which Michelangelo said is there, he just has to chip away what doesn't belong. I know we will never agree on this. But this is why "Gopal" plays a part. The only part Gopal plays is to just be still, to quit interfering. To be silent. To submit. An almost impossible job. The only doing, is not-doing. The 'statue' is always there.

"Argument,"...the scary-bears, boogie-man of ST!

Dude...when you answer someone with a viewpoint that counters there's, that IS 'an argument.'

What you are really saying there is, I'm going to tell you why I do not agree with you...I am going to thoroughly explain why I think you are wrong and I am right, but I don't want you to counter back. ZD does it all the time too. Fear of argument...fear of being directly challenged, speaks volumes about your level of confidence about your clarity.

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Aug 31, 2022 23:19:34 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 31, 2022 23:19:34 GMT

ZD: A significant realization is required to understand what Laughter is pointing to.

Right, and I don't think you have reference for that realization. You think Laughter is pointing to something in the dream...but he's pointing beyond.

Without that realization one lives entranced in a culturally-indoctrinated consensus paradigm.

You see, this says it all!

Muttley is pointing beyond any and all "paradigms," not JUST the "culturally-indoctrinated consensus paradigm."

The living truth lies beyond all ideas.

Yes, which also means beyond anything at all that appears....all perceivables...including a quality of 'aliveness.'

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Aug 31, 2022 23:54:33 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 31, 2022 23:54:33 GMT

Zendancer:
What some of us call "the concensus paradigm" and what Charles Tart called, "The consensus trance state," is the general conceptual framework that the cosmos is composed of separate things and events occurring in space and time being observed by separate entities.

No...the 'concensus paradigm"...."consensus trance," has nothing to do with the fundamental Truth of things....nothing to do with fundamental separation/Oneness.

The very idea of "concensus" in SR, gets tidily put in it's place.

No, concensus paradigm is a reference to indoctrination of minds....cultural...group think....brainwashing by the powers that be. It can even go somewhat deeper, into beliefs about what is possible in terms of experience...but regardless, we are still talking "experience." Whereas awakening to the dream is something entirely different....it's a seeing, a realization that is well and fully 'beyond experience,'...ALL experience, even those really awe-inspiring, woo-woo Ken Shows.

To find what sages call "the living truth" one must, in the words of Jacob Boehm, "Throw oneself into that wherein no creature dwelleth." Until one is sufficiently motivated to investigate what lies beyond images, ideas, and symbols, one will remain imprisoned within a culturally-indoctrinated mindset created by imagination.

Yes, you are clearly talking here about "awakening to the consensus trance, while still asleep in the dream," Vs. actual SR/awakening TO the dream, as being a dream.

Your knowledge of a some-thing that 'lies beyond images, ideas and symbols,' is as much a facet of the dream as is any other relative knowledge that you hold.

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Aug 31, 2022 23:57:51 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Aug 31, 2022 23:57:51 GMT

ZD:
None of those statements are true, but if you have no existential questions, there's nothing to discuss. Most people who visit this site are interested in ND, and I was simply agreeing with what Laughter has been pointing to.

Unfortunately, you are pointing right back into the dream.

Best wishes.

.....code for "Zd's gettin' pissed off"...

farmer
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ZD's Mistake Sept 1, 2022 0:10:05 GMT

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Post by farmer on Sept 1, 2022 0:10:05 GMT

Aug 31, 2022 23:57:51 GMT Figgles said:

ZD:
None of those statements are true, but if you have no existential questions, there's nothing to discuss. Most people who visit this site are interested in ND, and I was simply agreeing with what Laughter has been pointing to.

Unfortunately, you are pointing right back into the dream.

Best wishes.

.....code for "Zd's gettin' pissed off"...

What? Something to do with laughter? You’d have to bring by the full exchange here…… miss instigator..

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ZD's Mistake Sept 1, 2022 0:17:29 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 1, 2022 0:17:29 GMT

Zendancer--3 layer cake-baker:
What Laughter and I are pointing to has nothing to do with theories or anything that the human intellect can imagine. Here's the short story:

1. The intellect allows humans to look at what can be called "a unified infinite field of being" that is non-dual and imagine abstract distinctions in the form of images with distinct boundaries. All such boundaries are imaginary rather than actual.

Unboundedness/absence of limitation is not a something that appears.

A seeing beyond all apparent boundaries of objects that unveils a 'unified field' is still an appearance...an expression of apparent distinction/limitation.

If you "experience" it any way, it's an appearance...an expression. The infinite is not a something that appears...even as a 'unified field.'

A "unified field," is still of the realm of appearance/phenomenal....a perceivable.

2. The intellect can then distinguish names (symbols) that can be used to represent those images. (an image of a tree can be represented by the word/symbol "tree")
3. The intellect can also distinguish abstract relationships (in the form of ideas) about images and those ideas can also be symbolized with words.
4. Humans are culturally indoctrinated to imagine the same distinctions as other humans, and this process allows them to communicate with each other with a shared set of artificial and abstract distinctions.
5, Humans begin to talk to themselves mentally and thereby reinforce the distinctions that they have unconsciously adopted and internalized subconsciously.
6. The most basic distinction is the idea that there is a "me," with a name like "John Doe," that sees separate objects
7. Distinctions multiply in number and complexity, so that with algebra, as one example, a letter can represent a number, which can represent an image, etc.
8. Rather than interacting directly with the unified field of all being, or "what is," adults interact primarily with a meta-reality composed of images, ideas, and symbols. They see the map but fail to see the difference between the map and the territory.
9. Gradually, as humans grow from childhood to adulthood, they become strongly attached to their ideas and beliefs about reality, and cease to see what is actually in front of their eyes.
10. The path to clarity and understanding lies in shifting attention away from thoughts until cognitive illusions are penetrated by a deeper function of mind than the intellect

What you are describing above = functions of mind...has nothing to with Nonduality. the realization of Nonduality lies beyond all mind processes.

Anything that the intellect imagines is relative, but what we are--the entire unified field of all being--is absolute, infinite, and non-dual. It is beyond name and form but includes name and form.

Context mixing and conceptualizing (making an entire meal out of!) pointers.

Those who want to find the Absolute must discover what lies beyond images, ideas, and symbols. That is what Krishnamurti and all other sages are pointing to.

Lemme guess....Vanilla cream?

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Sept 1, 2022 0:25:58 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 1, 2022 0:25:58 GMT

Sept 1, 2022 0:10:05 GMT farmer said:

Aug 31, 2022 23:57:51 GMT Figgles said:

Unfortunately, you are pointing right back into the dream.

.....code for "Zd's gettin' pissed off"...

What? Something to do with laughter? You’d have to bring by the full exchange here…… miss instigator..

ZD's not pissed at the Mutt...he's pissed at Sree.

Deleted
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ZD's Mistake Sept 1, 2022 0:50:57 GMT Figgles likes this

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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2022 0:50:57 GMT

Sept 1, 2022 0:17:29 GMT Figgles said:

Zendancer--3 layer cake-baker:
What Laughter and I are pointing to has nothing to do with theories or anything that the human intellect can imagine. Here's the short story:

1. The intellect allows humans to look at what can be called "a unified infinite field of being" that is non-dual and imagine abstract distinctions in the form of images with distinct boundaries. All such boundaries are imaginary rather than actual.

That is just so not what it is!

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Sept 2, 2022 20:16:33 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 2, 2022 20:16:33 GMT

ZD: What is the question? THIS manifests as billions of people, and THIS does whatever it does via those billions. In the form of every new child THIS becomes culturally conditioned and learns how to do whatever it does. What is the issue that is not clear?

Billions of people 'doing stuff'....every child born 'becoming' culturally conditioned....all of that, appearance only....all a facet of the story...nothing there that is "Truth."

This is precisely where you go wrong/delusional ZD; you mistake experiential content..."perceivables" for the actual.

Figgles
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ZD's Mistake Sept 2, 2022 20:36:16 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Sept 2, 2022 20:36:16 GMT

Gopal:
Culturally conditioned made the THIS to forget about what it knows clearly? It is forgetting intentionally? Is it playing the hide and seek game? Millions are getting raped and tortured and killed because of it's hide and seek game ? Game would have been great if it carries its knowing along with its new incarnation, eh?

You're never going to make sense of it all so long as you're taking experiential content to have inherent existence. All of it's a play....a dream....appearance only.

Ultimately, there is no-one, no-thing 'getting raped and tortured and killed'...even though there may be an experience of such. What you really are cannot die nor be harmed...it's eternal...unlimited, unbounded.