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Post by Figgles on Jul 23, 2022 23:23:31 GMT
Correct! Non-duality = seeing prior to anything experiential. This is why it's such a nonsense to declare an appearing person or a shoe as "conscious, perceiving, experiencing," via a supposed non-conceptual seeing/realization. You see through/past the concept only to then reify it as an actual perceiving entity..? Sorry dubby, it just don't work that way.  |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 23, 2022 23:28:12 GMT
And yet, you are both insisting upon an 'addition of something known,' in your assertion that you know for absolute certain that others are perceiving/experiencing....the argument for "knowing" is an argument for "reifying the conceptual."
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Post by Figgles on Jul 23, 2022 23:34:01 GMT
That does not go far/deep enough. It's the same mistake ZD makes. It's not just 'prior to/beyond' intellect, it's prior to/beyond all perceivables...all content. Unless and until seeing is beyond ALL content, it's not actually transcendent of the story/experience/the conceptual.
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Jul 24, 2022 5:06:20 GMT
Now he is fighting for what solipsism is! Yup...he thinks we are butt-hurt/insulted over being called "solipsists," when really, the argument underway is really about the definition of solipsism. By virtue of that definition, the SR cannot be solipsists as that would mean circling back to 1st mountain position where once again, the appearing body/mind character is believed to be a separate, existent, perceiving entity in it's own right...a separate something that is giving rise to awareness vs. the other way around. It’s very very clear. WHO would be a solipsist? (Is that a word🤪?) |
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Jul 24, 2022 5:09:30 GMT
Not so. Simply seeing the inherent emptiness of the entirety of the phenomenal....that in terms of where the story might go to regarding what manifests, anything is possible.... reveals that all "fundamental laws" including that one, are illusion. Waking up means seeing through the idea of something in the story being causal to something else in the story, as an illusion....where once before, where perhaps 'attraction' between appearances was seen, in clarity it's simply "correlation/patterns arise." We drop the "law" bit...there are no "laws," and we drop the vibration as "causation/catalyst/creation" bit...and that just leaves 'what appears.' Patterns and correlates are a facet of the ongoing story. No surmising involved to see that one. Love the clarity. We just need to say relative and Truth and it’s all clear but LOA can so easily be debunked as we have time and time again. There does appear to be something in how people vibrate and what manifests but I see that as there being a strong identification in a false I more than anything these days. |
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Esponja
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Post by Esponja on Jul 24, 2022 5:12:31 GMT
I wonder what's tough there to understand. Tenka has the understanding issue so he is unable to grasp the idea of what we are talking. But Reefs can understand but I don't know what's stopping him to understand what I write. I suspect at this point that even IF Reefs did understand, he/she'd find some way to continue to argue the opposite...simply because he's so invested now at this point in being right...proving him/herself to be right...winning an argument. I think she started out at the beginning truly expressing the belief that "If it's all consciousness--that must therefore mean that every appearing thing, by virtue of that, is itself, conscious, aware, perceiving, giving rise to experience." As the conversation flowed on, her/his argument morphed considerably....she even changed her definition of "realization" so as to include the almighty CC/Kensho woo-woo program. Reefs is a very immature, reactive and vindictive character. Those types rarely if ever have the integrity required to admit they were w-w-w-w-rrr-r-r-ong... But yes, agreed, Tenka simply has no reference at all for the shift in position of seeing that is required to look "at" the world of perceivables as is necessary to see them all as empty and arising dependent, within/to awareness. Reminds me of the vaccinated.. some are being very stubborn in wanting to admit they were wrong. It doesn’t work at best and kills at worst. However, even the pro-vaxers lack insight into their own positions. |
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Post by Gopal on Jul 24, 2022 14:33:54 GMT
I feel like satch ia getting irritated. Perhaps.....Reefs can be irritating at times, no doubt. I see an important difference between finding a forum poster irritating vs. being 'hurt' by them....feeling hurt/deeply upset, that kind of thing. That actually says about his enlightened status. Today SN has written in one of his very clearly about this. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 24, 2022 16:50:25 GMT
Not so. Simply seeing the inherent emptiness of the entirety of the phenomenal....that in terms of where the story might go to regarding what manifests, anything is possible.... reveals that all "fundamental laws" including that one, are illusion. Waking up means seeing through the idea of something in the story being causal to something else in the story, as an illusion....where once before, where perhaps 'attraction' between appearances was seen, in clarity it's simply "correlation/patterns arise." We drop the "law" bit...there are no "laws," and we drop the vibration as "causation/catalyst/creation" bit...and that just leaves 'what appears.' Patterns and correlates are a facet of the ongoing story. No surmising involved to see that one. Love the clarity. We just need to say relative and Truth and it’s all clear but LOA can so easily be debunked as we have time and time again. There does appear to be something in how people vibrate and what manifests but I see that as there being a strong identification in a false I more than anything these days. Yes, what mind does with the bare facts of story content, can take a myriad of avenues. Humans have always found new ways to frame and explain why what happens, happens, and once there's a firm explanation in place, it's quite amazing how it seems to prove itself out; Such ideas as "the God's are angry, and must be appeased," and then, a sacrifice made and lo and behold, conditions smarten up again...for a bit....and then, those damned God's get angry again and some poor sap has to be thrown down the volcano...  LOA is a little more sophisticated perhaps, but still misconceived as it posits dream-content to actually be causal to other dream-content. And yes, you are so right...all we should need to say is relative vs. Truth and it should all be clear....so it's odd how that seems to be consistently mixed up by folks who in the past seemed to have that all sorted quite perfectly. I guess it goes to show that clarity can indeed come and go...which is important to acknowledge. "Being awake...being clear....SR," really is a present moment thing....a locus of seeing that is either there, or it isn't....(an absence really!) and not some kind of ongoing state that takes root and can be counted on to continue on forever, regardless. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 24, 2022 17:02:56 GMT
Perhaps.....Reefs can be irritating at times, no doubt. I see an important difference between finding a forum poster irritating vs. being 'hurt' by them....feeling hurt/deeply upset, that kind of thing. That actually says about his enlightened status. Today SN has written in one of his very clearly about this. Unless there's a clear sharing that indicates "blameful anger/fundamental judgment" involved, I don't agree that merely reading a post where a bit of irritation is revealed can then have you crystal clear about 'enlightenment status.' The ideas/feeling/beliefs that no longer arise in SR are only those that have their roots in the delusion of separation. To find the behavior of an appearing character a tad annoying, does not equal separation being in play. Even absent an SVP in play, personal judgments...likes/dislikes, still continue to arise. Because feelings are no longer identified with though, they simply arise and then easily pass on through....they don't get anchored into place by the erroneous ideas of an SVP who is under the delusion that in order to be at peace, all appearing conditions MUST conform to his preferences/desires. In SR, judgment of story-content still happens, but it's surface only...it no longer extends to the fundamental depths that it does when the SVP is still in play. When the locus of seeing is primarily "beyond" the arising story, there's an absence of a sense that there is something fundamentally wrong with any aspect of the story. It's well accepted that the story is going to go up and down in terms of conforming with likes and then at times, not conforming. It's all part and parcel of life experience...all essentially fine and good. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 24, 2022 18:09:55 GMT
You are asking that from the perspective of mysticism, not Truth/Nonduality.
"Alive" is a property/quality, regardless of how transcendent the viewpoint seems to be from which is seen. It does seem to be so, that in awakening/SR, life in general does indeed seem to take on a new depth...a vibrancy....an aliveness, which it seemed to be lacking before, but that new way of seeing/experiencing life, that new depth of the quality/property of aliveness, is not itself the "Truth" or the "seeing through/realization," but rather, it's one of the "impacts" of SR....or we could also say it is a facet of the 'informing' of mind that goes hand in hand with the absence inherent to SR.
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