Mind Enlightenment vs. SR

SomeNothing: WARNING: WALL OF WORDS APPROACHING (Detour always available. No one’s going anywhere, anyway.)

OK, thanks. So now I’m clearer on what your intention is. The switching back and forth between appearing world/phenomena and what is attempted to be pointed at creates difficulty in communication. The chasm ‘between’ them is not what is assumed, but the latter requires the shift or, at the very least the openness to its potential.

You have often quoted Gurdjeiff, and that’s fine, but I have never really looked at his stuff and had assumed it was some mystical movement of sorts. Apologies. I took at look at a one-pager of his general ‘system’, and got a better feel of what he was open to and, more importantly, it aligns with what you’ve shared here. Again, thanks for your honesty.

Do you feel you need to think of ND as being pragmatic before you can ‘accept’ it ro go into it? Yes, this is a trick question. The journey and seeking is in the world and, as such, is not very pragmatic for such endeavors, and that is typically what the mind is geared for. Maybe you can shed some light on your pragmatism. As was stated in the Yin Will section before, what is pointed at by the body of ND material is something that is realized to “have always been HERE” (my caps). So yeah, most of it just pisses one off until the ‘oh yeah’ occurs, and one sees that the ‘problems’ mind had were mostly just conflicts within the dualistic dreamworld of the mind (think- E’s split mind dealio or the duck/rabbit dualism- more later on that).

someNOTHING
‘NO THING’ is what one actually is.
‘some’ is what appears, an aspect of the territory, IN THAT (I do not think it is wise to equate them, but it’s your horse.)
Note: ‘NO THING’ still SEES territory, but only the perceivable aspects via mind’s 5 senses, ‘the 6th sense’, all mental/psychological phenomena, etc), while Intelligence KNOWS ITSELF as Wholeness/Oness in which ‘some’ appears.

Things, thoughts, experiences, feelings, etc that make up the perceivable territory- though many of the movements of mind become somewhat refined with disappearing nonsense issues that used to plague life and obscure clarity. Part of the mess that gets cleaned up is what then takes out the ‘middleman’ as an entity. Always good to go straight to Source! So, this is where ‘Intelligence informing mind’ comes in as ‘pragmatic’; when Oneness realizes one is caught up in mind games (one’s own, or someone else’s ideas/beliefs have infected it). Freedom from the nonsense is immediate. Crazy world out there is just a figure of speech, but apt relative to TPTPAU! Anyway, I do not know what E said to you and/or in what context, but the hard line version of ND intends for the mind to be dropped. I observed a playful, ‘crazy wisdom’, spiritually-incorrect vein in E’s style, but always done with good intentions. He knows the 'egoic mind' is always on guard and wanting the upper hand.

Duck/Rabbit: Duality of Mind/Perception
As for the duck/rabbit, as you can see, it is both (non-linearly). Mind is a matter of perspective, focus, and attention (linear). Some trains of thought are on more solid tracks than others which is the power of hard conditioned thought patterns, however unconscious they may be. So be it. It is the present discerning mind that ‘draws the conclusion’ of whether it is seeing one or the other. We can use memory to simply know the duck and rabbit are both there. Same thing goes with wave/ocean, moon there/not there, etc. Mind, with its aspect as memory, can make jumps in the realm of probabilities, but Truth Realization is a whole , subsuming matter (think- holonic, transcend and include). Memory plays in the expression of realizations, but there is NO substitute for genuine SR/TR. Period. So, it is a matter of whether Intelligence (Realized, not as a concept) is actually presently informing mind of its secondary status, right here, right now. Mind, itself a bifurcator (into dualities), cannot KNOW Oneness. There can be intellectual understandings of the concepts, no doubt, and they may/may not be helpful. For example, some people make a great living off selling intellectual understandings, intimations, and/or stuffed look-alike rabiducks.

The Cyber-Sanitorium
The play done here is to see if written words are coming from someNOTHING in touch with that Intelligence, or maybe even absorbed in it. Koans, given by a teacher, I think, tinker with the same ish. Sometimes, it's sparring being read, or it may be attempts to convey a sense of what is being pointed to (though it can’t be explained, nor really sensed per se… just the presence of what it might feel like). I don’t really see it as attempting to ‘teach’ anything, but more of an unlearning/deprogramming that makes one prone, but no one really knows how such ‘events’ manifest. Typically, the mind needs to be in a prone state, or tricked, to suddenly slip, collapse and/or lose its hold. Odd thingy. That is why actual realizations are considered causeless, a falling away, which is why they could be referred to as a mystery of sorts. But again, once the Maha Realizatin occurs, the bell can’t be unrung regardless of the ridicule/punishment received, though many may keep hush about it. Jesus may have suffered such fate. Dunno about dead people's stories, but I assume he would be quite surprised looking at what has become of the movement in his renaming. Anyway, the crucifiction was carried out by the ‘pitchfork crowd’, and as far as trauma is concerned, physically being crucified would be purddy traumatic, no doubt. I’m pretty sure anyone physically crucifying another for their beliefs is pretty lost in the miasma of their mind’s beliefs… suffering. Luckily, as a culture, we frown on such extremes, though we do have lesser forms of punishment. That’s what part of the bigger picture of my last wall of words was about. What might actually stop such crazy mass murders and terrorism? Suffering and unconsciousness of being already Whole increases the probabilities of such extreme madness. Perfectly so.

The Trinity Stuff
The Father: ‘NO THING’
The Son: ‘some’
The Holy Ghost: the shift in perspectives, so to speak, …attention, guided by the Intelligence of Truth, with mind playing out in contexts. Niz's movement between NOTHING/Wisdom and EVERYTHING/Love. That kinda thing
The suffering, unconscious politicians/priests/people of the time: Let’s kill Jesus as a heretic/outsider, because his pointers to SR threaten our perceived needs of (fill in the blanks here).

Horse’s Limitations
The ego/self is the illusory jockey, and the mind is a horse that can be led almost to the fountain of eternal infinite, but will never quite make it. Both are fuggin stubborn in their ways; conditioning works that way. Together, they are the terrible master. If determined and conscious enough, one can sharpen the tool of the mind to cut through many aspects of the egoic veil and dive into its darkest heart of hearts (remember when Neo jumped into Agent Smith?--- coulda been anybody), grow wiser to its own ways and its use of memory to give credence to beliefs, and be prone to Intelligence. Then, who knows what will happen? No one!! But once Awake to the Dream, that horse morphs into an existential Swiss Army knife of sorts, depending on the context in the dream, hehe.

Maybe this helps, maybe it confuses, maybe it's repetitive, maybe allows some harvesting of low hanging ripe fruit, maybe some ripe fruit falls… never really know. Chuck it on the dung heap when you’re done with it.

P.S.- I'll now read your own wall of words and get back to ya! ✌🏽

Zendancer: Here's a story that's usually used in a different way, but can be applied to this discussion. A guy is rowing a boat on a river when he sees another covered boat coming in his direction. He alters course, but the other boat continues to come towards him. The guy gets angry that the pilot of the other boat isn't turning to avoid him. He swerves out of the way of the oncoming boat, but when he can see into the boat he discovers that there is no human on board. The boat simply drifted in his direction. The guy is no longer angry because he can see that he mistakenly assumed that a pilot in the other boat was being careless and needlessly endangering him.

The story usually ends there as an example of how the idea/illusion of another boat pilot is discovered to be false, and the guy's anger comes to an end. In the case of ND, the question becomes, "If no human was piloting the boat, who, or what, was piloting the boat?" Let's imagine that the guy thinks, "God was the actual pilot of the boat." Seeing that God was the actual pilot does not bring back the illusion that there was a human on board. The guy knows that there was no human on board because he looked into the boat and saw that it was empty. SR is like that. When the illusion of "me" falls away, God/Source/Tao is known to be doing everything, including "vivifying the body," a la Ramana Maharshi, and anyone who sees that will relax because everything that is happening is, in the deepest sense, being sourced by something incomprehensibly intelligent --something far beyond the capacity of the intellect to grasp.

ZD:
Correct. He always refuses to engage with anything he can't logically respond to from his POV. I've repeatedly asked him about people, like Ramana and Niz, who were known to get angry, how that could happen using his own logic. These are real-world examples, but if you live in the imaginary world of the intellect, real-world actualities must be ignored.