Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 15:32:38 GMT
I don't think you and Enigma are that far away from each other regarding the topic of: realizing happiness as being at peace. I think what Enigma means is that happiness isn't and can't be a positive but is a negative, as in an absense of suffering, that in itself already is considered as peace, which can be also experienced as being happy about being at peace (because of the absense of suffering). That's what Arthur Schopenhauer too was emphazising in his aphorisms. He was hammering home the point that happiness is the absense of sadness/suffering/ personal hardship and that there is no such thing as permanent positive happiness for the ripe and wise adult human being. When my mother is gone I will cry just like my siblings will do. And I know right now that I'm not even remotely going to be happy when she will die. Nobody, who is a true real human being, will still be happy when a loved one dies. Mourning the loss of a loved one is not considered as happiness in my world. And not mourning the loss of a loved one isn't normal or natural. Every human being crys when their dear dog (their cat or other pet) dies as an expression of utterly being unhappy about it. Third mountain, IMO, here means: emotions are emotions again. When something bad happens, I'm angry. When something sad happens, I cry. When something is funny, I laugh. When I'm at ease with everything that happens to me, for me and through me, I'm at peace all the time, although I may cry or be angry because of certain circumstances that are the way they are. I'm not permanently happy. I'm at peace with what ever is the case for me. Do I sound like an Enigma fan-girl right now? If so, I'm sorry. I'm just sayin'... No, they differ. Enigma consider that Peace is not a feeling, but Figgles obviously does. And I am standing on the side of Enigma here. Because any feeling moves towards it's opposite. And I say that nobody, who is a sentient being, is supposed to feel/be/think oneself to be at peace as long as humans are being killed by other humans, animals live under horrorble conditions and Nature is polluted and destroyed on a daily basis by humans, who deal in feeling good by accumulating/hording a lot of stuff/money/property for the sake of avoiding to face the true conditions the earth is in. So, who ever pretends to be at peace with all that will have an unpleasant awakening one day when there isn't an ego (egoic state of mind) any longer that can keep one seperated from all the suffering that is in the so called collective unconscious (mind) we all share. IMO, very few people have the (divine) right to just be at peace with everything. The earth is very fragile even without being threatened from the inside by its own population (humans), who, on top of floating around in space on a tiny planet, play with atomic bombs and are war-mongering around with other explosives, and polluting the planet with producing stuff nobody really needs or even wants without being brainwashed about it. You're at peace with the condition the earth currently is in? You're at peace while others are suffering? (I'm using the term you in a general, not in a personal sense here.)
It is a miracle that planet earth, and we along with it, still exist. And no, I'm not at peace. I'm scared shitless when I think about where I am and who seem to run the show here on earth. And I don't even watch TV, read news-papers or listen to the radio.
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bluey
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Post by bluey on May 21, 2017 15:51:08 GMT
Absolutely the peace that sages talk of still has an expression on the physical body. The smile or inner smile. Happiness. You can't help but feel this happiness. At work people say you're always happy. But the body can't help smiling as you are at one with That. Even in the early days of the realisation I was rushing to the loo. The mind was still the body was just moving without any thoughts I was smiling and happy. The body was in fever for years and even a nurse said I can't believe your weight but I was smiling looking at her upside down watch. Even my mother passed I was smiling at her in a coffin. The mind was trying to come in to create a story but the essence was so still the smile and happiness was running the show sitting in the directors chair. Even my partner was forced into an arranged marriage went through much but Being with her now I can't stop smiling at her. I don't know if you've ever laughed so much from the stomach that your thoughts just stop. This used to happen to me as a child. Yes, to that. Thanks for sharing...I love how you put things. Yes to the laughter. When laughing takes over like, I would say it's the 'highest' outward expression of joy....and I have no doubt that kind of abandon is healing and transformative. Absolutely the ground of Being is joy and happiness the natural state. And yes healing is there as you are not in the way. You only have to look at a sages eyes to have this understanding. Just Being is a word I do embrace as I tried to language this in the beginning to put over a language to describe the indescribable. All words fall short in truth. Just as I normally see Donna on a Monday. Just walking in to her home and seeing a puppy there. And saying where has he come from? And Donna you could bring an army in front of her she is like the poster Satch Chit Ananda always focused pointing at That. Use the right words ......Donna , satch chit Ananda and Barry Long would make an interesting meet up. Whereas Ian and I would be just looking at each other in silence. Smiling. We can still a mind just through touch and staring. Why go the long route of using words and practice. So many ways to This. Why so many seekers come along and talk of Being with non duality teachers and then half way say I've lost what I was about to say. My mind slips the trail of thoughts just by looking at you. Then there is the beautiful creative expression of joy and happiness that's felt in others in Donnas presence as the mind stills and they temporarily connect have glimpses of their natural state. One day She was half way through changing the covers on her bed and she felt a puppy was pining for her as he was the last one left. And she had to sit down on her bed. This is the spontaneity that arises the movement without thought. And her partner was saying a puppy is waiting for you?? He's used to her saying things like this. But as Donna found a number and the number held her she phoned the woman for her to say I have one puppy left. And they went there but she knew he was coming home with her. Her partner was doing all the mind stuff having the money in place, filling the car with petrol, etc. She just got in the car. As she was recalling the events the story of Jesus and the lost sheep came to mind. I love you more than the ninety nine. And it's the side to Ramana that's very rarely talked about away from telling the seeker to focus on the I AM how he would spontaneously dance with his cow. Have squirrels squatting in his grass roof. Enjoy them running over his body. He once said it's a good job he didn't get married no woman would have been able to keep up with his habits. But this the ground of Being just as the words of sages past Sat Chit Ananda that embraces all where the joy and happiness is the part of the natural state. And laughter too haha. I try to keep all meaning simple as my first tantric teacher taught me. Why making love with my partner is very intimate as the body knows what to do and the stillness is felt within her as I tear through her past emotional pain body, mind and maya. Her heart opens to say this is Love as she is made more nothing. All over India you can see the lingham and yoni. Some have just been found in architectural sites. Dating thousands of years ago. I feel many of the awakened sages were female Gurus. I feel this tradition is coming back in. Even Donna when I had first met her handed me some post cards from Devon. One was of Shiva and the other of lingham and Yoni. I was amazed even to say you came across these in Devon. We would spend time at a Hindu temple near to us. It's well known. I had to bring her there to just lie on the grass. Just seeing Eckhart Tolle on the stage I feel he is part of this change of bringing these past traditions in. I know we will meet one day. As Vancouver seems to be a place where I'm coming across people around him. When I met Ian he gave me his book. I've never read it but just opening the book he had written the words Bach keep all meaning simple. Same words as my first teacher. It's how I try and meet people. It seems to work for some. Every sage just points at what's already there in your own heart just a turning in is required. Your true Self will make the adjustments, it's not in your hands. Even this conversation it's all grace. It's all coming from within you. From my side I have never uttered a word as I know not what I am. Everything you see feel and touch is me and still isn't me. For those that know thee no words can paint.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 16:00:33 GMT
No, they differ. Enigma consider that Peace is not a feeling, but Figgles obviously does. And I am standing on the side of Enigma here. Because any feeling moves towards it's opposite. And I say that nobody, who is a sentient being, is supposed to feel/be/think oneself to be at peace as long as humans are being killed by other humans, animals live under horrorble conditions and Nature is polluted and destroyed on a daily basis by humans, who deal in feeling good by accumulating/hording a lot of stuff/money/property for the sake of avoiding to face the true conditions the earth is in. So, who ever pretends to be at peace with all that will have an unpleasant awakening one day when there isn't an ego (egoic state of mind) any longer that can keep one seperated from all the suffering that is in the so called collective unconscious (mind) we all share. IMO, very few people have the (divine) right to just be at peace with everything. The earth is very fragile even without being threatened from the inside by its own population (humans), who, on top of floating around in space on a tiny planet, play with atomic bombs and are war-mongering around with other explosives, and polluting the planet with producing stuff nobody really needs or even wants without being brainwashed about it. You're at peace with the condition the earth currently is in? You're at peace while others are suffering? (I'm using the term you in a general, not in a personal sense here.)
It is a miracle that planet earth, and we along with it, still exist. And no, I'm not at peace. I'm scared shitless when I think about where I am and who seem to run the show here on earth. And I don't even watch TV, read news-papers or listen to the radio. The sequence of Being>Feeling>Thinking would result in successful action or Doing. If our thoughts are based on genuine feelings that spring from our deepest Being, then the outcome of the process, the actions we take as a result, will be successful. If one percent of the world's population got onboard with this, the one percent being the critical mass, then what you've described will change. Pass it on....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 16:27:09 GMT
And I say that nobody, who is a sentient being, is supposed to feel/be/think oneself to be at peace as long as humans are being killed by other humans, animals live under horrorble conditions and Nature is polluted and destroyed on a daily basis by humans, who deal in feeling good by accumulating/hording a lot of stuff/money/property for the sake of avoiding to face the true conditions the earth is in. So, who ever pretends to be at peace with all that will have an unpleasant awakening one day when there isn't an ego (egoic state of mind) any longer that can keep one seperated from all the suffering that is in the so called collective unconscious (mind) we all share. IMO, very few people have the (divine) right to just be at peace with everything. The earth is very fragile even without being threatened from the inside by its own population (humans), who, on top of floating around in space on a tiny planet, play with atomic bombs and are war-mongering around with other explosives, and polluting the planet with producing stuff nobody really needs or even wants without being brainwashed about it. You're at peace with the condition the earth currently is in? You're at peace while others are suffering? (I'm using the term you in a general, not in a personal sense here.)
It is a miracle that planet earth, and we along with it, still exist. And no, I'm not at peace. I'm scared shitless when I think about where I am and who seem to run the show here on earth. And I don't even watch TV, read news-papers or listen to the radio. The sequence of Being>Feeling>Thinking would result in successful action or Doing. If our thoughts are based on genuine feelings that spring from our deepest Being, then the outcome of the process, the actions we take as a result, will be successful. If one percent of the world's population got onboard with this, the one percent being the critical mass, then what you've described will change. Pass it on.......and be part of the solution. It's important to walk with both feet, the warning foot that never forgets how fragile life on earth is and warns about the dangers we are facing, and the other foot that is imagining/painting/drawing a beautiful and joyfull future for all of us, humans, animals and Nature. Without an utopia, without a vision of a better world, we are doomed to deal with reality as it currently is and that's no fun. I strongly believe in a happy ending. Let those drive/fly the ship, our beautiful planet earth, who are lovers and peacefull creative thinkers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 16:29:19 GMT
The sequence of Being>Feeling>Thinking would result in successful action or Doing. If our thoughts are based on genuine feelings that spring from our deepest Being, then the outcome of the process, the actions we take as a result, will be successful. If one percent of the world's population got onboard with this, the one percent being the critical mass, then what you've described will change. Pass it on.......and be part of the solution. It's important to walk with both feet, the warning foot that never forgets how fragile life on earth is and warns about the dangers we are facing, and the other foot that is imagining/painting/drawing a beautiful and joyfull future for all of us, humans, animals and Nature. Without an utopia, without a vision of a better world, we are doomed to deal with reality as it currently is and that's no fun. I strongly believe in a happy ending. Let those drive/fly the ship, our beautiful planet earth, who are lovers and peacefull creative thinkers. Integrated. Thank you.
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Post by Figgles on May 21, 2017 16:43:22 GMT
I don't think you and Enigma are that far away from each other regarding the topic of: realizing happiness as being at peace. I think what Enigma means is that happiness isn't and can't be a positive but is a negative, as in an absense of suffering, that in itself already is considered as peace, which can be also experienced as being happy about being at peace (because of the absense of suffering). I agree. Our differences mostly lie in the way words are being defined, I think. I think at this point, he's even agreed that while Peace itself, as he uses it, does not specficially reference a 'feeling' per se, or something that is experienced, Peace is known 'through' experience. For me, Peace is just a silly word to use to reference the absence that gives rise to experience that is devoid of suffering...why not just use 'absence'...much less confusing imo. Seems to me there are two different 'shades' of happiness being referenced there; IN the first, (happiness as the absence of suffering), the fundamental sense of goodness, inherent in experienced being, is referenced, and in the 2nd, (permanent positive happiness), the more surfacey, positive feeling that is tied to a wanted happening. One is the naturally occuring feeling that arises in experience, that goes hand in hand with unfettered Being, and the other (still the same sense of goodness/wellbeing), but, it is happening 'as a result' of something else happening in experience. It is 'tied to' experience circumstance in a way that means it will disappear from the surface of experience, the moment the condition that gave rise to it, disappears from experience. And of course, that is always going to happen where experiences are concerned, as they are always changing/shifting. Sure. Of course. The happiness that abides when a loved one dies, is not there 'because' a loved one died, but rather, it's there in spite of the sense of loss, and abides alongside, underscores, the experienced loss of form. When my brother died, I cried and felt the sense of physical loss of him, but alongside that, was a deep, pure, profound joy. It was as though in my physical loss of him, I gained something that filled my heart to overflowing, and while it didn't completely cancel out the sense of loss, (I still have moments where I miss his physical presence in my life) it 'colored' it in a way that took the 'hurt' and made it something beautiful... if that makes any sense. It is very hard to put into words how one can be knee deep in sadness and acknowledging that indeed, something loved and enjoyed has been forever changed, and yet, simultaneously, be awash with Love. The terms; reverence, joy, bliss, encompassing light, hint towards the experience. It's been 11 years, and my relationship with him remains as strong and alive as ever. Rather than a 'sad' experience, I would say mostly his passing has been something profound and beautiful and en-lightening. yeah, I agree with all that....I think if we differ, it's mostly in terminology. Is sadness that abides alongside a sense that all is still well and okay, the same as sadness that abides alongside a sense that all is lost and life at it's core, sucks? I don't think so. Enigma fan-girl? No problemo if so....I get it more than you might realize.
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Post by Figgles on May 21, 2017 16:48:14 GMT
I don't think you and Enigma are that far away from each other regarding the topic of: realizing happiness as being at peace. I think what Enigma means is that happiness isn't and can't be a positive but is a negative, as in an absense of suffering, that in itself already is considered as peace, which can be also experienced as being happy about being at peace (because of the absense of suffering). That's what Arthur Schopenhauer too was emphazising in his aphorisms. He was hammering home the point that happiness is the absense of sadness/suffering/ personal hardship and that there is no such thing as permanent positive happiness for the ripe and wise adult human being. When my mother is gone I will cry just like my siblings will do. And I know right now that I'm not even remotely going to be happy when she will die. Nobody, who is a true real human being, will still be happy when a loved one dies. Mourning the loss of a loved one is not considered as happiness in my world. And not mourning the loss of a loved one isn't normal or natural. Every human being crys when their dear dog (their cat or other pet) dies as an expression of utterly being unhappy about it. Third mountain, IMO, here means: emotions are emotions again. When something bad happens, I'm angry. When something sad happens, I cry. When something is funny, I laugh. When I'm at ease with everything that happens to me, for me and through me, I'm at peace all the time, although I may cry or be angry because of certain circumstances that are the way they are. I'm not permanently happy. I'm at peace with what ever is the case for me. Do I sound like an Enigma fan-girl right now? If so, I'm sorry. I'm just sayin'... No, they differ. Enigma consider that Peace is not a feeling, but Figgles obviously does. And I am standing on the side of Enigma here. Because any feeling moves towards it's opposite. My stance is that Peace is 'known' through experience. Absent experience, there'd be nothing to talk about. I think recently E has agreed with that...not wholly sure though. I fully acknowledge that which gives rise to known/experienced Peace, IS indeed "absence".
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Post by Figgles on May 21, 2017 16:53:16 GMT
But to even consider Peace as not being a feeling is the work of an observer and an object of observation. It's a reactive interpretation. More thought. Right? Wrong? Peace is Peace. I've read enough of figgles posts through the years to understand she relates to Peace as a body knowing. Prior to mind. An expression of knowing in awareness. Figgles obviously advocate the idea of peace as feeling but that's wrong. If you experience peace time to time against irritation and anger, then that's not peace, Peace is free looking or absence of avoiding the moment. You are essentially saying peace is a particular kind of experience there, aren't you?...how is that so different from my saying peace is known through experience? & If irritation arises continuously, I would agree, that peace is not abiding....can I say exactly where the line between a little irritation and a lot occurs? Not exactly, but a little irritation means it arises and quickly passes through without taking hold...if a negative emotion takes hold, I would indeed question whether peace abides.
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Post by Figgles on May 21, 2017 16:55:12 GMT
Figgles obviously advocate the idea of peace as feeling but that's wrong. If you experience peace time to time against irritation and anger, then that's not peace, Peace is free looking or absence of avoiding the moment. Peace isn't a quality of the heart? The heart feels. Yeah, it just seems silly to me to try to separate out Peace from feeling. Absent feeling/experiencing, why would we even be mentioning it?
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Post by Figgles on May 21, 2017 17:01:41 GMT
No, they differ. Enigma consider that Peace is not a feeling, but Figgles obviously does. And I am standing on the side of Enigma here. Because any feeling moves towards it's opposite. And I say that nobody, who is a sentient being, is supposed to feel/be/think oneself to be at peace as long as humans are being killed by other humans, animals live under horrorble conditions and Nature is polluted and destroyed on a daily basis by humans, who deal in feeling good by accumulating/hording a lot of stuff/money/property for the sake of avoiding to face the true conditions the earth is in. So, who ever pretends to be at peace with all that will have an unpleasant awakening one day when there isn't an ego (egoic state of mind) any longer that can keep one seperated from all the suffering that is in the so called collective unconscious (mind) we all share. IMO, very few people have the (divine) right to just be at peace with everything. The earth is very fragile even without being threatened from the inside by its own population (humans), who, on top of floating around in space on a tiny planet, play with atomic bombs and are war-mongering around with other explosives, and polluting the planet with producing stuff nobody really needs or even wants without being brainwashed about it. You're at peace with the condition the earth currently is in? You're at peace while others are suffering? (I'm using the term you in a general, not in a personal sense here.)
It is a miracle that planet earth, and we along with it, still exist. And no, I'm not at peace. I'm scared shitless when I think about where I am and who seem to run the show here on earth. And I don't even watch TV, read news-papers or listen to the radio. Being abidingly at peace means seeing all the lousy stuff happening on earth, but also being certain that in spite of that, Love prevails. It really is the best position to be in to receive inspiration as to the best ways to immediately 'help.' When one is mired in heartsick pain over the 'horrors' of physicality, he might indeed be launching very strong desires for something to change for the better, but if he stays stuck in that position, he's simply not 'open' to receiving the inspiration for solutions that will come the moment he steps beyond that, towards hope, towards faith, towards knowing that despite appearances, all is fundamentally well and good.
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