What is A Kensho Experience?

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What is A Kensho Experience? Jul 12, 2021 4:35:05 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 12, 2021 4:35:05 GMT

Stumbled across this--cool synch!

From A Sadhu’s Reminiscences of Ramana Maharshi by A.W. Chadwick:

In Western books one reads of people who had flashes of illumination. One Dr. Bucke collected and published records of many such. But whereas the Realization of Bhagavan [Ramana Maharshi] was permanent, this was not the case with those described by Bucke, which were never more than temporary flashes, lasting usually no more than half an hour. The effect of such may remain for some days but it will invariably pass with time.

I asked Bhagavan about this, how it could be so and he explained to me that which comes as a flash will disappear in a flash. Actually it is not Self-realization they experience but Cosmic Consciousness where they see all as one, identify themselves with Nature and the Cosmic Heart. In Hinduism this is called Mahat. Here a trace of ego remains even during the experience and a consciousness of the body belonging to the visionary. This false sense of “I” must go entirely, for it is the limitation which serves as bondage. Liberation is final freedom from this.

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What is A Kensho Experience? Jul 12, 2021 4:42:02 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 12, 2021 4:42:02 GMT

Zazeniac: Isn't what you describe a "woo-woo" experience? And for some folks here, I think Reefs included, "woo-woo" is an SR no-no.

Muttley: woo-woo's that involve a radical shift in perspective can have value for relating to others in a number of contexts and this value has the potential to outweigh the potential for attachment to the experience or the impetus to either chase or avoid a similar experience.

So, If a woo-woo helps one to relate better to others, no big deal if he gets attached to the awe/bliss inspired by the woo-woo....never mind if he becomes an avid seeker of woo-woo's...the relating to others trumps those pitfalls?

Last Edit: Jul 12, 2021 4:42:19 GMT by Figgles

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What is A Kensho Experience? Jul 12, 2021 19:10:03 GMT muttley likes this

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Post by Figgles on Jul 12, 2021 19:10:03 GMT

Muttley: I even can get the sense from figs sometimes when she writes about emptiness, formlessness, and surrender. Yes, irony.

Thanks for noticing.

There is no shortage of awe and reverence here for THIS. I am prone daily to the welling up of tears of joy...gratitude. There's a pervasive sense of awe/wonder that a world appears....at all....

I would be surprised to hear of wakefulness to the dream, absent awe and gratitude FOR the dream.

Those who suggest seeing the world as an empty appearance only are somehow experiencing a dead/card-board cut-out sort of life/world, obviously don't have reference for the 'dream' pointer.

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What is A Kensho Experience? Jul 12, 2021 19:57:28 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 12, 2021 19:57:28 GMT

Zazeniac: It reminds me of Castenedas' warning in the guise of Don Juan regarding those whose tonal (wordly experience) was not in order approaching the nagual (the infinite). He warned those who hadn't a solid grasp in the tonal would lose their minds if they attempted to experience the nagual.

Yes, Makes sense that one who is still taking worldly experience as ultimate Truth....the world as a separate, existent thing, might suffer mentally if/when there's an experience that defies that picture.

BUT I have a different question for you regarding CC experiences. I don't discount them or their value. Neither do I believe their woowooness is a detriment.

Similarly, I also do not discount their value in relative terms....however, in terms of SR, waking up to see the world and all thoughts, things, circumstance, conditions, as empty appearance only, arising within to that which abides, there is no value.....in terms of actual 'freedom/liberation' from the phenomenal....no value....not necessary.

Such an experience may become a relative detriment though, in that there might be a false belief the woo-woo is Truth and that seeking has ended when in fact, it hasn't....or if the woo-woo is really awe-inspiring, a whole new seeking game can ensue, where there's a constant chase/search to get back to that experience/feeling.

My question is that you and Reefs seem to belive they are a necessity. But clearly RM doesn't. Neither do the dzogchen masters I've recently read about. One speaks about "short moments" of peace "repeated many times". And that eventually this becomes continuous awareness of peace. It reminds me of Self-Inquiry where RM contends that over time the savikalpa samadhi becomes effortless and permanent.

Yup. That IS the issue; The idea that somehow CC/Kensho is a necessity for SR/awakening to 'be full and complete.'

The other point of disagreement I have is regarding "seeing the svp as illusory." To me that's just another thought. It has no relevance in the living experience. In other words when I'm in the flow, it never surfaces. If someone brings it up, it has no meaning.

In awakening, the SVP is "seen through," which is different than a thought/conception that says "the SVP is illusory." The non-conceptual seeing through of the SVP really does leave an absence of the sense/belief/mis-take/erroneous imagining of 'being a' separate, volitional person. There really is an 'absence' of identification following SR/awakening with the body/mind/character....the place of seeing has shifted and no longer is there the erroneous sense that awareness is emanating from/out of a body/character....the locus of primary seeing shifts to 'beyond' anything/anyone appearing in the story.

Last Edit: Jul 12, 2021 19:58:50 GMT by Figgles

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What is A Kensho Experience? Jul 12, 2021 21:40:36 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 12, 2021 21:40:36 GMT

Inherent in the very definitions for "Kensho," is the indication that it's an 'in the dream insight' only and NOT (T)ruth.

The idea of 'seeing into your own nature,' or 'seeing the nature of what we actually are,' is a seeing that obviously still has identification with an object, in play.

The very idea of being a 'what' that then, HAS a nature to it, works fine in dream-land where there is still identification in play, but once awakened, the flaws of such an idea are evident; There is no 'what' to HAVE "a nature." The very idea then of seeing into my own true nature, falls apart, crumbles, in the seeing through of SVP...absence of identification.

SR means all and any identification with things/who's/what's/objects, ends. It means seeing that experience and perception happens, absent an experiencer....absent a perceiver. There is no who or what to even have a particular nature, quality or property....however fantastical and awe-inspiring that quality/property may appear to be.

If there is a Kensho/CC experience then, followed by or arising hand in hand with SR/seeing through of separation, then the seeing through of separation will cancel out the woo-woo story about "I saw what I actually was...I saw into my own true nature," because SR wipes out the erroneous idea of being a thing/who/what that could "have" a specifically defined nature.

If anything, in SR, the 'nature' of all appearing things is seen through. Appearances do not "Have" quality/property beyond what is appearing. All qualities/properties/nature relative to something that appears, are also 'appearance only.' There is no middle layer....some kind of special quality/nature that lurks beneath the surface as Truth relative to an appearance.

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What is A Kensho Experience? Jul 12, 2021 21:47:57 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 12, 2021 21:47:57 GMT

Reefs: Better not entertain such hypotheticals.

I'll go thru Segal's book again and post some of her descriptions of CC/kensho in a separate thread later, because her case is really interesting. And she does point out some things that clearly distinguish CC's from both ordinary experiences and woo-woo experiences. One key point is non-locality of perception, which people who haven't had that reference seem unable to comprehend and make sense of. But this is one main point why it is not, ultimately, 'just another experience'.

Reefs:I’m about 2/3 done with the book and it seems I remembered some passages of the book incorrectly. Yes, her descriptions are spot on, very detailed and to the point. However, what doesn’t ring true at all is the constant fear, or even “terror” she experienced all day every day for more than a decade.

Right....clearly then, her CC/Kensho's were of no value in terms of actual freedom/liberation/SR/awakening. So...why again is it important that she describes CC/Kensho perfectly?

If anything, the Segal case demonstrates how CC/Kensho can lead one to believe the search is over....that they are free from the mis-take of imagined separation, when obviously, they are not at all.

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What is A Kensho Experience? Jul 12, 2021 22:24:36 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 12, 2021 22:24:36 GMT

Reefs: I’m about 2/3 done with the book and it seems I remembered some passages of the book incorrectly. Yes, her descriptions are spot on, very detailed and to the point. However, what doesn’t ring true at all is the constant fear, or even “terror” she experienced all day every day for more than a decade. And I think this is because she may have lost her identification with the SVP, but she still seemed to be totally identified with the mind, just minus the SVP. She definitely suffered from overthinking. And it wore her down. So what she describes in the first part of the book, even though technically correct, that’s not enlightenment. It may, however, be called awakening or mind-enlightenment, i.e. the witnessing is happening from the perspective of mind, not prior to mind. So there is clearly something amiss there. Because basically, the way she describes her experience, it does seem like some kind of zombie state or twilight zone between the personal and the impersonal. Clearly she is not centered in the personal perspective (aka SVP) anymore, but there isn't anything what she describes in the first part of the book that has the ring of impersonal perspective (aka prior to mind) either.

Wow...this is a big reveal that you seemingly consider it possible that identification with separate, volitional personhood could somehow be absent, But, identification with 'mind' could still be in play.

This demonstrates a monumental misunderstanding on your part re: what it means to 'see through the SVP'...not only that, a lack of grasp of what is actually meant by terms 'identification' and 'SVP.'

The separate, volitional person and ALL separation, ALL identification get seen through simultaneously as the shift in locus of seeing moves from "the person" to beyond. The idea that separation, the entity, volition, could somehow get seen through/be absent, while identification with 'mind' could continue on in that absence, is ludicrous.

Identity/identification with the conceptual = separation. They are one & the same.

Her sense of deep fear/terror following what she deemed to be a seeing through the separate person, was obviously nothing more than a 'state of' De-personalization, which is something entirely different than seeing through the separate, volition person, (realizing Oneness).

Depersonalization/derealization disorder is a type of dissociative disorder that consists of persistent or recurrent feelings of being detached (dissociated) from one’s body or mental processes, usually with a feeling of being an outside observer of one’s life (depersonalization), or of being detached from one's surroundings (derealization). The disorder is often triggered by severe stress

Reefs: Think about it, when you had your realization(s), did you shake and sweat in terror for days, weeks or even years because of your new perspective? And was one of the first thoughts that came to mind that you might have gone insane? But that’s what happened to her, so she went from psychologists to psychiatrists to – eventually - non-duality teachers. And I am not surprised that the psychologists and psychiatrists she had been seen over the years had no idea what happened to her or what to do with her, other than prescribing some drugs to ease the fear by making her numb, an offer which she always declined.

What I found surprising though was that the non-duality teachers she was contacting in the beginning, while congratulating her on her experience of no-self, had no clue either and were obviously just speaking from book knowledge (check out chapter 7 if you have the book).

Not so differently really than what you are doing yourself here where she is concerned... upholding her CC/Kensho account as some kind of example/proof that CC/Kensho is something more than just a woo-woo experience, as something that ultimately IS an important "realization."

If anything, her account demonstrates that CC/Kensho IS nothing more than a profound, mystical 'experience,' that has no relevance to Self Realization/seeing through separation.

For her, however, talking to these ND and Zen people was a major turning point because she realized that she hasn’t gone insane and that there may be a deeper meaning to all of this and that there are likely more realizations to come that would end this state of confusion and terror. But until she had that deep CC, it seems all mostly intellectual, I’m afraid. And these non-duality and Zen teachers not noticing the hyper-intellectual nature of her perspective doesn’t speak well for them or their own state of realization, IMO.

Did the CC/Kensho change things for her in any significant way regarding her fear/suffering? If not, what was it's value?

I’ll go into more details in a separate thread. It’s worth going thru this book chapter by chapter because, IMO, it does show clearly the difference between actual enlightenment (down to the visceral level) and what we sometimes call mind-enlightenment (limited to the intellectual level). She’s an excellent case study for what we have been saying, that you have to feel it in your bones or else it’s worthless and that there's more to realize than that the SVP is an illusion.

Also, let’s not forget that Suzanne was a master meditator and had been part of a hardcore meditation group (TM) for many years. So this may have contributed to her rather weird path to enlightenment and mental state.

Your own misunderstandings about what constitutes the SVP and what it means to 'see through it,' is muddying your view on this; The whole point is--She did not actually see through the SVP...did not actually realize there is no SVP!

It's impossible for the SVP to go while identification with mind remains. The SVP runs far deeper and is much more complex than a mere sense of being a particular character/personality.

De-personalization is not the same as realizing there is no SVP. And, the idea/thought/conceptualization "there is no separate, volitional peron," is not the same thing as realizing/seeing through the SVP. You are obviously conflating the two.

And this idea you keep presenting about needing to 'feel the absence of SVP in your bones' for it to be complete, is a nonsense. Who or what 'feels the absence of SVP in their bones'? All you're doing is circling back into bodily identification. if that's the case.

SR really Is 'an absence.' And while that absence does make itself known in experience, the realization itself is not to be found in experience.

Last Edit: Jul 12, 2021 22:31:35 GMT by Figgles

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What is A Kensho Experience? Jul 12, 2021 22:45:51 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 12, 2021 22:45:51 GMT

Zendancer: Agreed. FWIW I never thought of Segal's sudden loss of selfhood at the bus stop as enlightenment, and it was never clear to me that she ever became enlightened in the sense of living in the natural state. I saw it as simply the loss of the SVP perspective, and for some people this can be extremely frightening.

Again, her shift was nothing more than a shift in mind state, there was no 'loss/absence' of the SVP perspective. She was clearly still very much identified with the patterns of thought/mind/ideation/values of personhood....her fear/terror at the new state she found herself in, was testament to that.

I find it surprising that like Reefs, you too believe it's possible to lose the SVP, but continue to remain 'identified' with mind. Identification (with any-thing that appears...anything perceivable!!) = imagined separation. Period.

Remember the young guy who tried the Mooji meditation one time and the same sort of thing happened to him? He came to this forum trying to get advice about how to get his usual sense of selfhood back. While discussing his case, one of us discovered some psychiatrists in England who treated or mentioned treating about a hundred people with the same sort of disassociation syndrome.

People are different, and what's wonderful for some people can be horrifying for others. I remember a local meditator telling me that he talked his brother into trying meditation, and shortly afterwards the guy started meditating he had some sort of meditation-related experience that scared him so badly that he never meditated again, and never wanted to even talk about it again. Zen has a term--"makyo"-- which translates as something like "devil world," and many ZM's warn people that meditation can trigger all kinds of stuff in the subconscious that may rise to the surface. One ZM wrote about some horrifying image that regularly arose during his first years of meditation, and he would have to dunk his head in ice water to free himself from the image. Apparently that sort of thing is not too uncommon, and I once had a frightening experience of the same sort. ZM's advise people to ignore that kind of stuff and eventually it all bubbles up and goes away on its own. ZM Seung Sahn, while doing his 100 day retreat that resulted in a major kensho, wrote that after day 80 all kinds of strange stuff happened--angelic figures appeared as well as demonic figures--, but all of it finally ended shortly before his big CC.

In Segal's case the sudden shift from a personal perspective to a totally impersonal perspective was extremely frightening and apparently sent her mind into overdrive, and her thoughts led her to think that her perspective was pathological long before psychiatrists came to the same conclusion, and reinforced that idea. I think it was Jean Klein who finally helped put her mind at ease twelve years after the sense of being a SVP disappeared.

Again, the sense of SVP disappearing is not the same as the 'disassociation syndrome,' you allude to above. Shocking actually that you'd conflate them.

In my case, as I suspect is the case for most people who pursue ND, every time selfhood disappeared life became blissful, peaceful, simple, and was accompanied by a joyous sense of flow, but Segal was one of those people who fell into that smaller category of people who find the loss of the SVP perspective horrifying. I don't think I would consider Segal a case of mind-enlightenment because there was nothing about her loss of the SVP perspective that was remotely enlightening, but her story is certainly fascinating for a lot of reasons. I'll look forward to your discussion of her book.

As an aside, I've always been amazed at her writing style. Her book flows in a way that makes reading it effortless, and I've probably read it 10 or 12 times--sometimes just studying her writing style in an effort to understand how she achieved that effect

I'd say her story provides an excellent example of the difference between mind-states vs. SR. SR of course, being the giant brass ring, separate, volition persons erroneously yearn for, thinking they know what it is, yearning so deeply at times, they convince themselves it's happened when it hasn't.

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What is A Kensho Experience? Jul 12, 2021 23:17:07 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 12, 2021 23:17:07 GMT

Reefs: Jean Klein couldn't help her either. In fact, no one could really help her. These ND and also Zen teachers kept congratualing her for having achieved something amazing that didn't feel amazing at all to her. Which proved that these people had no clue either what Suzanne was actually experiencing. Basically, what Suzanne was asking was: "Is this it?" and these people kept saying, "Yes, Suzanne, that's it!" but unfortunately, that wasn't 'it'. What people like Jean helped her to see though was that there's a bigger picture to this. But no one could help her with that fear. It only ended after that big CC, in laughter, joy and awe, i.e. when she realized that there is not only no personal self, but there are also no others! That was the moment when the fear suddenly disappeared and when she actually had to laugh really hard because, how could she have missed something that obvious for so long?!

Jeez...this is a very different take on the whole issue than what you expressed a few years back where you were indicating Segal's CC and the resolve after to be nothing more than "relief factor" and in no way an indication of actual "realization." And, are you saying that the CC/Kensho completely resolved the fear for her? If she'd truly seen through the SVP and fundamental separation (otherness) then surely that was the case...?

I too read that she eventually relegated her entire ordeal down to a mental health issue. That said, beautiful, mystical experiences can indeed be really good for helping one to feel a sense of relief...less fear...temporary joy....happiness, etc, but the problem is, those states don't last. I'm guessing the "Reefs of yesteryear" below, would agree with that.

Reefs of yesteryear:
Woo-woo, like any other experience, can be described, usually in great detail. Realization cannot be described since it's pointing to an absence as opposed to an experience. The reason why experiences are often mistaken for a realization is exactly due to the relief factor Silence mentioned and the belief that woo-woo has some kind of significance. Relief can be created by deconstructing concepts, by replacing one concept with another one, usually replacing a rather bulky and very specific one with a rather simple and general one. Realization, however, cannot be created since it's not about replacing concepts or some new kind of information that has to be processed. Realization is not about improving mindscape content. It's just seeing things for what they are, seeing what is real and what is false, appearance only. That's why 'seeing' is not about what is seen (like woo-woo), but more about how it is seen.

spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/144621

Last Edit: Jul 12, 2021 23:18:40 GMT by Figgles

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What is A Kensho Experience? Jul 12, 2021 23:25:22 GMT

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Post by Figgles on Jul 12, 2021 23:25:22 GMT

Reefs: But no one could help her with that fear. It only ended after that big CC, in laughter, joy and awe, i.e. when she realized that there is not only no personal self, but there are also no others! That was the moment when the fear suddenly disappeared and when she actually had to laugh really hard because, how could she have missed something that obvious for so long?!

Reefs: Her fear came back, too.

Ah...okay....that answers my question.

So that's doubly weird.

What's triply weird is that you are acknowledging that her fear you indicate in the first post above to have 'disappeared,' really didn't because it came back. And yet you continue to tout Segal's CC account as some kind of evidence that CC = important realization.