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Post by Figgles on Apr 12, 2020 18:57:54 GMT
I perused Sifting's site as I was curious as to whether he'd addressed Corona fears with his students, being that his views on the subject are what they are. He has.
In it, he speaks about how to 'be free from your anxieties'....he suggests that will happen if you....pay them no need, pay them no mind, pay them no worry.'
This is a back-assward approach at best. Where there is anxiety, there IS already 'heeding, minding, worry.' Far better for a seeker to dive into that, to unwrap it, delve into the thoughts and feelings of limitation that are in play...clearly see them for what they are. And in lieu of 'realization/seeing through' work WITH them.
You cannot manifest freedom by simply 'ignoring' the SVP. You must see through, realize that there is no actual SVP.
From an excerpt on the SiftingtoTruth site;
I could not disagree more. What he's selling there is a conditional freedom that is based upon a conscious intent to ignore thought, which necessarily also means to ignore feelings, interests. It's the 'denial of the phenomenal,' that many have mistakingly accused me of when I speak about the importance of seeing all appearances as empty arisings within/to that which abides.
Ignoring thought does not equal 'surrender.' Surrender happens when interest in a particular thought/idea actually dissolves.
Ignoring thought is a split-mind practice where there is effort made to 'deny' the interest in thought.
There is no need to 'ignore' thought once all thought has been seen to be inherently empty and devoid of Truth. And where that has no yet been realized, the seeker would do far better to dive into examination of the anxiety provoking thoughts.....inquire into them. All 'ignoring' them is going to do is to add greater weight to an SVP that is going unseen.
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Post by Figgles on Apr 12, 2020 21:53:49 GMT
Sifting, it'll likely seem as though I'm picking on you here, but keep in mind, you have after all put yourself out there as a spiritual teacher. After perusing your videos further, it's very clear that you are selling a form of mind-enlightenment that is conditional upon consciously/conceptually, eschewing the phenomenal in favor of a concept of what you 'really are.' A freedom that depends upon turning all attention away from the world and all it's things, including all thoughts, all feelings, all ideas, is not actual freedom. I'm kind of stunned to see the depth and scope to which this idea of 'ignoring/turning away from the phenomenal' plays within your teachings. Wow.  You could not be more wrong. This is very similar to Satchi's declarations that a meditative state, absent thought, equaled SR/enlightenment...and thus, his assertion that mind must be 'annihilated/destroyed.' Groundedness in Being can (and does in SR) abide simultaneously as the world is engaged and attended to. There is no need to turn away from the world of things to remain free from the world of things. Waking up means seeing the phenomenal as empty and ephemeral and dependent upon Being, but it does not mean ignoring or turning attention away from, the world. Yours is a common mistake, but it's rare to see someone outright, actively 'teaching' such. The phenomenal is not the enemy. See if for an appearance arising within consciousness, and that's all that's necessary to continue to engage it, absent becoming enslaved by it. |
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by muttley on Apr 12, 2020 22:12:37 GMT
Sifting, it'll likely seem as though I'm picking on you here, but keep in mind, you have after all put yourself out there as a spiritual teacher. After perusing your videos further, it's very clear that you are selling a form of mind-enlightenment that is conditional upon consciously/conceptually, eschewing the phenomenal in favor of a concept of what you 'really are.' A freedom that depends upon turning all attention away from the world and all it's things, including all thoughts, all feelings, all ideas, is not actual freedom. I'm kind of stunned to see the depth and scope to which this idea of 'ignoring/turning away from the phenomenal' plays within your teachings. Wow. You could not be more wrong. This is very similar to Satchi's declarations that a meditative state, absent thought, equaled SR/enlightenment...and thus, his assertion that mind must be 'annihilated/destroyed.' Groundedness in Being can (and does in SR) abide simultaneously as the world is engaged and attended to. There is no need to turn away from the world of things to remain free from the world of things. Waking up means seeing the phenomenal as empty and ephemeral and dependent upon Being, but it does not mean ignoring or turning attention away from, the world. Yours is a common mistake, but it's rare to see someone outright, actively 'teaching' such. The phenomenal is not the enemy. See if for an appearance arising within consciousness, and that's all that's necessary to continue to engage it, absent becoming enslaved by it. He's just talking about emptiness, you know.  Don't let your annoyance with his debating you obscure what value there might be in his pointing to others. |
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Post by Figgles on Apr 12, 2020 22:21:56 GMT
Sifting, it'll likely seem as though I'm picking on you here, but keep in mind, you have after all put yourself out there as a spiritual teacher. After perusing your videos further, it's very clear that you are selling a form of mind-enlightenment that is conditional upon consciously/conceptually, eschewing the phenomenal in favor of a concept of what you 'really are.' A freedom that depends upon turning all attention away from the world and all it's things, including all thoughts, all feelings, all ideas, is not actual freedom. I'm kind of stunned to see the depth and scope to which this idea of 'ignoring/turning away from the phenomenal' plays within your teachings. Wow. You could not be more wrong. This is very similar to Satchi's declarations that a meditative state, absent thought, equaled SR/enlightenment...and thus, his assertion that mind must be 'annihilated/destroyed.' Groundedness in Being can (and does in SR) abide simultaneously as the world is engaged and attended to. There is no need to turn away from the world of things to remain free from the world of things. Waking up means seeing the phenomenal as empty and ephemeral and dependent upon Being, but it does not mean ignoring or turning attention away from, the world. Yours is a common mistake, but it's rare to see someone outright, actively 'teaching' such. The phenomenal is not the enemy. See if for an appearance arising within consciousness, and that's all that's necessary to continue to engage it, absent becoming enslaved by it. Don't let your annoyance with his debating you obscure what value there might be in his pointing to others. Pointing to emptiness does not entail a turning attention away from the phenomenal, just a pointing to the 'inherent emptiness' of the phenomenal. That's a big and common mistake when folks are mind-enlightened only. He's clearly saying that freedom from thought lies in ignoring thought...that freedom from the phenomenal lies in a conscious intent to turn attention away from thought. His teachings are fine if he's honest that what he's selling is actually 'self help' vs. Self Realization. |
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Post by Figgles on Apr 12, 2020 22:25:44 GMT
Am curious Laughter, do you, like Sifting, equate 'ignoring all thought' with 'surrender'?
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 4,394
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Post by muttley on Apr 12, 2020 22:28:28 GMT
He's just talking about emptiness, you know. Don't let your annoyance with his debating you obscure what value there might be in his pointing to others. Pointing to emptiness does not entail a turning attention away from the phenomenal, just a pointing to the 'inherent emptiness' of the phenomenal. That's a big and common mistake when folks are mind-enlightened only. He's clearly saying that freedom from thought lies in ignoring thought...that freedom from the phenomenal lies in a conscious intent to turn attention away from thought. His teachings are fine if he's honest that what he's selling is actually 'self help' vs. Self Realization. Zen has a concept that's quite deep, called "beginner's mind". This idea of "mind enlightenment" is similar, but you're focused on only one end of the stick.
You've formed an opinion here, and debating it with you, would only entrench you in that position.  |
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by muttley on Apr 12, 2020 22:38:35 GMT
Am curious Laughter, do you, like Sifting, equate 'ignoring all thought' with 'surrender'? I wouldn't describe it that way, but I can see what he means.
A seeker - especially one starting out, especially people deep into a frenetic urban trance - they have trouble discerning inner from outer. They often can't distinguish - as Tolle put it in that vid you posted - between a situation, a moment, and their thoughts about that moment. At the core of every emotion is a thought, and one aspect of surrender is to allow powerful emotions to move through you without getting lost in them.
We both know that there's no difference between inner and outer, but that requires a realization. The point that one can be present to these movements without being swept away by them, or having to wall them off and shut down to them, is a nuance that seekers and patients alike might not understand at the outset of either process of pointing or psychoanalysis.
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Post by Figgles on Apr 12, 2020 22:45:13 GMT
"Mind is not your enemy. It is just a play of your own energy. Let it dance, let it move. Witnessing of that occurs spontaneously.
Go beyond any image of yourself. You are that space of Awareness, within each appearance comes and goes. None can stay..."
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Post by Figgles on Apr 12, 2020 22:47:26 GMT
Pointing to emptiness does not entail a turning attention away from the phenomenal, just a pointing to the 'inherent emptiness' of the phenomenal. That's a big and common mistake when folks are mind-enlightened only. He's clearly saying that freedom from thought lies in ignoring thought...that freedom from the phenomenal lies in a conscious intent to turn attention away from thought. His teachings are fine if he's honest that what he's selling is actually 'self help' vs. Self Realization. Zen has a concept that's quite deep, called "beginner's mind". This idea of "mind enlightenment" is similar, but you're focused on only one end of the stick.
You've formed an opinion here, and debating it with you, would only entrench you in that position. ....and no 'entrenchment of position' THERE, at all.   |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 22:49:45 GMT
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Don't let your annoyance with his debating you obscure what value there might be in his pointing to others. 
