Post by Figgles on Apr 10, 2024 17:28:27 GMT
ZD:
I know; it's a major failing.
There seem to be an infinite number of possible realizations, but the two major ones are (1) realizing that reality is NOT what was imagined (seeing that it's a unified whole), and (2) realizing that who one is is NOT what was imagined (seeing that the "me" and conventional self identity as a SVP was an illusion). As Reefs noted, we assume that in the Zen tradition "kensho" reveals that reality is unified and infinite and "satori" is equivalent to what Ramana called "Self-realization" or what some of us like to call "THIS-realization."
I know; it's a major failing.
There seem to be an infinite number of possible realizations, but the two major ones are (1) realizing that reality is NOT what was imagined (seeing that it's a unified whole), and (2) realizing that who one is is NOT what was imagined (seeing that the "me" and conventional self identity as a SVP was an illusion). As Reefs noted, we assume that in the Zen tradition "kensho" reveals that reality is unified and infinite and "satori" is equivalent to what Ramana called "Self-realization" or what some of us like to call "THIS-realization."
It might indeed "seem" that way from a position of having had glimmers/glimpses of the absence of separation but without a true abiding shift in locus of seeing to "beyond/prior to."
You are clearly conflating mind's informed "conceptions" of those glimmers/glimpses with the shift in locus of seeing that is SR.
Interestingly, many people seem to discover #1, above, but do not discover #2. This seems to be the case for Rohr unless satori occurred after the video posted above was filmed. I can identify with Rohr because I wrote a newspaper column for ten years pointing to the same thing that Rohr points to, but still hadn't discovered that there was no "me" who apprehended the Infinite.
The apprehension of #1 without #2, is a clear indicator that SR has no happened and rather, conceptual understanding has been mistaken for SR.
I remember Figs giving me lots of grief in the past because she couldn't understand how someone could apprehend the Infinite/oneness and not simultaneously see through the illusion of selfhood.
Pointing to the Truth is the equivalent of "giving you grief"? Thanks for sharing....explains why you wanted me to remain banned/blocked from ST.
Surely even just based on logic one can see the error of your assertion; That which obscures Oneness/Infinite from shining forth is noneother than "the illusory SVP." If the SVP illusion is still in play, then Oneness/Infinite is still obscured. You've mistaken a conceptual, experience based knowing for "realization/seeing through." (All realization is at it's crux, a seeing through of delusion/illusion and in that, the Truth naturally reveals itself.)
All I could tell her is that that's what usually happens (particularly with Christian mystics), and there are hundreds of examples of this.
Agreed. But mysticism is not Nonduality....a CC/Kensho is a mystical experience. SR is not a mystical experience, but rather a profound shift of locus of seeing that corrects a fallacy....that dissolves previously imagined, fundamental separation.
You seem yourself to be saying the Christian priest in the videos is not SR because he still believes there is a 'somewhere' he needs to get to...no? What that means is that while he's had plenty of experiential, mind-expanding, awe-inspiring "insights," he has yet to "realize" the absence of separation/fundamental Oneness.
It is extremely rare for someone to penetrate both issues simultaneously, but it does occasionally happen, and the Buddha may be the best example. He had a kensho event occur when he looked up and saw Venus in the morning sky, and he apparently got everything in one big blast.
You are still not grasping the distinction between "a CC/Kensho event" vs. "realization/seeing through." They are not one & the same. Kensho/CC is but an "initial glimmer." It is "incomplete" and in that incompleteness, if one stops there, he's still fast asleep in the dream.