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Quotes
Feb 20, 2021 19:10:21 GMT
Post by Figgles on Feb 20, 2021 19:10:21 GMT
"Rather than being unthinkable, however, suicide should be supremely thinkable. It is the thing that most needs thinking about. At the very least, we would want to break the logjam and make some decisions about it for ourselves. If you want to have some fun with Spiritual Autolysis, begin with the question: Why shouldn’t I kill myself right now?"
Jed McKenna-Spiritual Warfare, Book Three of the Enlightenment Trilogy
Funny this arrive in my in-box this morn. Last night watched a Netflix episode of "The Sinner" where a dude was waaaay too caught up in this kind of thinking. While I've always been a fan of this kind of 'right to the crux' inquiry, the show exemplified that any idea, any question, even those designed to get one delving deeper, can be traps.
That said, am appreciating Jed's 'hard-line' more and more it seems.
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Feb 20, 2021 22:25:51 GMT
Post by Figgles on Feb 20, 2021 22:25:51 GMT
“Ego said, "I have just one desire: To find God. And it's so intense that I can do anything for it."
I said, "Ok. Do one thing. Drop this desire too." Ego can't do that because that will be the end of Ego. Many seekers can't take this last step. Their life becomes extremely painful. There is no pain greater than the pain of Ego trying to find God.” ― Shunya
Yes, this is the issue.
And yes, the greatest pain is indeed the SVP trying to find the Truth when it is what obscures Truth... A shadow trying to find the light, when it is 'itself' the absence of such.
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Feb 21, 2021 5:26:26 GMT
Post by Figgles on Feb 21, 2021 5:26:26 GMT
“What if there was no such thing as true thought?” – Adyashanti
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 4,394
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Feb 21, 2021 18:48:17 GMT
Post by muttley on Feb 21, 2021 18:48:17 GMT
“Ego said, "I have just one desire: To find God. And it's so intense that I can do anything for it." I said, "Ok. Do one thing. Drop this desire too." Ego can't do that because that will be the end of Ego. Many seekers can't take this last step. Their life becomes extremely painful. There is no pain greater than the pain of Ego trying to find God.” ― Shunya Yes, this is the issue. And yes, the greatest pain is indeed the SVP trying to find the Truth when it is what obscures Truth... A shadow trying to find the light, when it is 'itself' the absence of such. Nah, I can imagine all sorts and depth of pain and suffering. That strikes me as seeker-drama-queenism.
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Feb 21, 2021 23:27:24 GMT
Post by Figgles on Feb 21, 2021 23:27:24 GMT
“Ego said, "I have just one desire: To find God. And it's so intense that I can do anything for it." I said, "Ok. Do one thing. Drop this desire too." Ego can't do that because that will be the end of Ego. Many seekers can't take this last step. Their life becomes extremely painful. There is no pain greater than the pain of Ego trying to find God.” ― Shunya Yes, this is the issue. And yes, the greatest pain is indeed the SVP trying to find the Truth when it is what obscures Truth... A shadow trying to find the light, when it is 'itself' the absence of such. Nah, I can imagine all sorts and depth of pain and suffering. That strikes me as seeker-drama-queenism. ... 'existential pain,'? It could be argued that inherent in any form of suffering, at it's crux there's an imagined SVP 'trying' to get beyond itself.
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 4,394
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Feb 22, 2021 0:21:28 GMT
Post by muttley on Feb 22, 2021 0:21:28 GMT
Nah, I can imagine all sorts and depth of pain and suffering. That strikes me as seeker-drama-queenism. ... 'existential pain,'? It could be argued that inherent in any form of suffering, at it's crux there's an imagined SVP 'trying' to get beyond itself. Sure, similar to how at the root of any and all fear we might find the fear of death.
This needs lots of hamster-mind equivocation though. Otherwise dooooofus guy starts crackin' wise about how being enlightened means you don't dodge buses, etc ..
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Feb 22, 2021 5:06:52 GMT
Post by Figgles on Feb 22, 2021 5:06:52 GMT
... 'existential pain,'? It could be argued that inherent in any form of suffering, at it's crux there's an imagined SVP 'trying' to get beyond itself. Sure, similar to how at the root of any and all fear we might find the fear of death.
This needs lots of hamster-mind equivocation though. Otherwise dooooofus guy starts crackin' wise about how being enlightened means you don't dodge buses, etc .. Yeah, perhaps instead of 'greatest pain' the better term would have been 'most fundamental/inherent' pain.
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muttley
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Feb 22, 2021 18:14:58 GMT
Post by muttley on Feb 22, 2021 18:14:58 GMT
Sure, similar to how at the root of any and all fear we might find the fear of death.
This needs lots of hamster-mind equivocation though. Otherwise dooooofus guy starts crackin' wise about how being enlightened means you don't dodge buses, etc .. Yeah, perhaps instead of 'greatest pain' the better term would have been 'most fundamental/inherent' pain. How about "root of all suffering"? You see, I'm pointing to the distinction between pain and suffering. They are similar in that both are relative appearances, but they're also different. It's a TMT bunny hole for the mind though. For instance, the pain of having your house torn apart by a tornado has nothing to do with the SVP, but the suffering of an SVP trying to find the Truth, is completely dependent on the SVP. In that case, the SVP imagines any pain, whereas the tornado refugee isn't imagining their pain. I'd say, also, that the seeker isn't imagining their suffering, but this is precisely the case where the distinction between pain and suffering might be the most useful in offering an insight to the one so suffering.
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Feb 22, 2021 19:27:18 GMT
Post by Figgles on Feb 22, 2021 19:27:18 GMT
Yeah, perhaps instead of 'greatest pain' the better term would have been 'most fundamental/inherent' pain. How about "root of all suffering"? You see, I'm pointing to the distinction between pain and suffering. They are similar in that both are relative appearances, but they're also different. It's a TMT bunny hole for the mind though. For instance, the pain of having your house torn apart by a tornado has nothing to do with the SVP, but the suffering of an SVP trying to find the Truth, is completely dependent on the SVP. In that case, the SVP imagines any pain, whereas the tornado refugee isn't imagining their pain. I'd say, also, that the seeker isn't imagining their suffering, but this is precisely the case where the distinction between pain and suffering might be the most useful in offering an insight to the one so suffering. And I very much agree with and acknowledge that distinction within a particular context. However, the arising of emotional pain that is not abject suffering, while it may not necessarily hinge upon an SVP, often does. Emotional pain need not reach the level of suffering (a sense of being intolerable) for it to = (the pain of/sense of) imagined separation.
When separation is in play, the very 'fundamental nature of' life's ups and downs = some degree of 'pain.' A sense of loss can indeed be said to = emotional pain, but perhaps not necessarily...? ....& yeah, there we go into that TMT bunny hole for mind you mentioned.
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
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Feb 22, 2021 19:55:41 GMT
Post by muttley on Feb 22, 2021 19:55:41 GMT
How about "root of all suffering"? You see, I'm pointing to the distinction between pain and suffering. They are similar in that both are relative appearances, but they're also different. It's a TMT bunny hole for the mind though. For instance, the pain of having your house torn apart by a tornado has nothing to do with the SVP, but the suffering of an SVP trying to find the Truth, is completely dependent on the SVP. In that case, the SVP imagines any pain, whereas the tornado refugee isn't imagining their pain. I'd say, also, that the seeker isn't imagining their suffering, but this is precisely the case where the distinction between pain and suffering might be the most useful in offering an insight to the one so suffering. And I very much agree with and acknowledge that distinction within a particular context. However, the arising of emotional pain that is not abject suffering, while it may not necessarily hinge upon an SVP, often does. Emotional pain need not reach the level of suffering (a sense of being intolerable) for it to = (the pain of/sense of) imagined separation.
When separation is in play, the very 'fundamental nature of' life's ups and downs = some degree of 'pain.' A sense of loss can indeed be said to = emotional pain, but perhaps not necessarily...? ....& yeah, there we go into that TMT bunny hole for mind you mentioned. Down and down and around we go then!
See, the tornado loser may or may not experience emotional pain at the loss of the house, but that's not the only pain they might feel in that scenario, and pain bourne of physical hardship is very different than the emotional "pain" (I'd say, it's really, suffering) of an SVP that wants to know the truth. And even the emotional pain of getting tornado'd- depending on the details - may or may not be dependent on the SVP. The ultimate TMT touch-point here is the distinction between sorrow at a passing that is suffering, and otherwise. And even short of that, there's other potential emotional pain that isn't even directly related to the sorrow of a loss, like, say, the dismay at the disorienting hardship of sudden homelessness.
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