muttley
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Post by muttley on Oct 4, 2018 4:49:59 GMT
Weelll I think in this case you're stretching out the usefulness of " desire". 
I'll cut to the chase and state the way I think you see things: that physical causality is only an appearance, and that the only cause is Consciousness. You seem to me to be implying that the state of the addicts body and nervous system aren't the cause of the withdrawal pain.
Regardless of how the causality is conceived, the change in the addicts condition will take time. During that time, they're going to feel that pain, regardless if they desire not to feel it. In fact, as you've pointed out, it's only if their desire to change is stronger than their desire for what they're addicted to that they'll feel that pain.
Maybe craving is a betterer word. In any case, one can't negotiate with their own blackmail terms. IOW, if physical pain is being used to blackmail oneself into taking the drug, the desire is not to stop the pain until the drug is acquired. Mind can be a sick puppy sometimes. The way I understand it, the fact of the withdrawal pain is independent of the addicts state of mind. I'd agree that pain and suffering create one another in a feedback loop, and if the acceptance is deep enough, there can be little to no suffering, and so a relatively minimal level of pain given the addicts state at the time of stopping. But I don't believe in miracles. |
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Oct 4, 2018 4:52:16 GMT
Who else would self-inquiry apply to?? Right. It's just that that particular question imo, isn't necessarily the most direct way to address the interest. I've seen folks who are seemingly pretty far removed from SR grasp the gamesmanship involved in writing certain behaviors off as 'bad habits.' Really? As I see it, that seeing is inherent in the 'human adulthood' Jed McKenna references. It does indeed involve being conscious to the machinations of mind....but it also involves an interest in self honesty, sincerity itself. The human adult takes responsibility for their own interests, but still lives in a world that's ultimately full of influences, forces and events that have nothing to do are not determined by and sometimes even unrelated and often not effected by or completely out of reach of any actions taken on those interests. They'd explain their behavior accordingly. |
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Oct 4, 2018 5:03:59 GMT
Weelll I think in this case you're stretching out the usefulness of " desire". I'll cut to the chase and state the way I think you see things: that physical causality is only an appearance, and that the only cause is Consciousness. You seem to me to be implying that the state of the addicts body and nervous system aren't the cause of the withdrawal pain.
Regardless of how the causality is conceived, the change in the addicts condition will take time. During that time, they're going to feel that pain, regardless if they desire not to feel it. In fact, as you've pointed out, it's only if their desire to change is stronger than their desire for what they're addicted to that they'll feel that pain.
That's not necessarily a given. Indeed, it's the way it appears to go for most, but that doesn't mean an immediate turnaround is not possible. My understanding is that addiction involves neurological and chemical changes, but that there's a wide range of human biology. Some people aren't as easily hooked on some or all addictions and and the degree to which those changes have happened is going to depend on the depth and length of the addiction.
It's a layman's understanding of a complex topic that's quite technical in the details, but there is a much simpler analogy that we can use to illustrate the point here. Let's say someone breaks a bone. Isn't the pain of a broken bone an inevitable fact? Isn't the process of getting back to the same functioning as before the break, without pain, going to take time? My understanding of chemical addiction is that it does damage similar to breaking a bone.
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 4, 2018 14:24:28 GMT
If it's genuine and sincere, there might be precious little left to keep the symptoms going beyond a collective belief that they must. Yeah the whole "collective belief" dealio isn't one I'm on board with. It just means there are recurring patterns in the content of Consciousness. You don't see anything like that? |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 4, 2018 14:35:31 GMT
Maybe craving is a betterer word. In any case, one can't negotiate with their own blackmail terms. IOW, if physical pain is being used to blackmail oneself into taking the drug, the desire is not to stop the pain until the drug is acquired. Mind can be a sick puppy sometimes. I'd agree that pain and suffering create one another in a feedback loop, and if the acceptance is deep enough, there can be little to no suffering, and so a relatively minimal level of pain given the addicts state at the time of stopping. But I don't believe in miracles. Yeah, the collective belief is that mind and body are separate. What is it about a substance that makes it addictive? After all, nobody ever suffers withdrawal from an asparagus addiction. I say the severity of the withdrawal is exactly proportional to the intensity of the craving. Popular wisdom would say the body is the source of the craving, (however counter intuitive that may be) which is why I originally opted for the term 'desire'. |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 4, 2018 14:46:22 GMT
Right. It's just that that particular question imo, isn't necessarily the most direct way to address the interest. I've seen folks who are seemingly pretty far removed from SR grasp the gamesmanship involved in writing certain behaviors off as 'bad habits.' Really? As I see it, that seeing is inherent in the 'human adulthood' Jed McKenna references. It does indeed involve being conscious to the machinations of mind....but it also involves an interest in self honesty, sincerity itself. The human adult takes responsibility for their own interests, but still lives in a world that's ultimately full of influences, forces and events that have nothing to do with those interests. They'd explain their behavior accordingly. Well, they do have something to do with those interests. There may be interest in conforming in order to be accepted, or do whatever is required in order to make a living, and so on. The interests may be different than they would be in an ideal world. |
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Post by Figgles on Oct 4, 2018 14:59:15 GMT
If it's genuine and sincere, there might be precious little left to keep the symptoms going beyond a collective belief that they must. Yeah the whole "collective belief" dealio isn't one I'm on board with. How about then just "belief"? Do you agree or disagree that strong expectation might make the difference between symptoms vs. no symptoms? I say there's an important relationship there. |
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Post by Figgles on Oct 4, 2018 15:00:42 GMT
Maybe craving is a betterer word. In any case, one can't negotiate with their own blackmail terms. IOW, if physical pain is being used to blackmail oneself into taking the drug, the desire is not to stop the pain until the drug is acquired. Mind can be a sick puppy sometimes. The way I understand it, the fact of the withdrawal pain is independent of the addicts state of mind. I'd agree that pain and suffering create one another in a feedback loop, and if the acceptance is deep enough, there can be little to no suffering, and so a relatively minimal level of pain given the addicts state at the time of stopping. But I don't believe in miracles. So So does that mean you disagree with the assertion that in terms of experience, anything is possible? |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Oct 4, 2018 15:01:35 GMT
That's not necessarily a given. Indeed, it's the way it appears to go for most, but that doesn't mean an immediate turnaround is not possible. My understanding is that addiction involves neurological and chemical changes, but that there's a wide range of human biology. Some people aren't as easily hooked on some or all addictions and and the degree to which those changes have happened is going to depend on the depth and length of the addiction.
It's a layman's understanding of a complex topic that's quite technical in the details, but there is a much simpler analogy that we can use to illustrate the point here. Let's say someone breaks a bone. Isn't the pain of a broken bone an inevitable fact? Isn't the process of getting back to the same functioning as before the break, without pain, going to take time? My understanding of chemical addiction is that it does damage similar to breaking a bone.
Contextually valid, but ultimately cause always finds it's way back to consciousness (or Consciousness), and consciousness forms and reforms the body accordingly. That's also why I reject the idea of depression being caused by imbalances in brain chemistry. |
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Post by Figgles on Oct 4, 2018 15:03:43 GMT
Right. It's just that that particular question imo, isn't necessarily the most direct way to address the interest. I've seen folks who are seemingly pretty far removed from SR grasp the gamesmanship involved in writing certain behaviors off as 'bad habits.' Really? As I see it, that seeing is inherent in the 'human adulthood' Jed McKenna references. It does indeed involve being conscious to the machinations of mind....but it also involves an interest in self honesty, sincerity itself. The human adult takes responsibility for their own interests, but still lives in a world that's ultimately full of influences, forces and events that have nothing to do with those interests. They'd explain their behavior accordingly. I don't know about 'taking responsibility' for interest. Fact is, we have no control over arising interests.... seeing and acknowledging the presence of interest, is what I'm talking about. |
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