muttley
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Post by muttley on Oct 3, 2018 0:55:56 GMT
Sure. But two things. I think you'll find the first idea agreeable: what we want to do isn't a problem unless it's somehow overtly self-destructive or if we also want something that's at cross purposes at the same time. As you say, this can't happen unless there's a less-than-conscious state of mind going on. But then of course, there is the case where someone knows that cigarettes are bad for them, and they want to quit, so we can't really say they're "not conscious" of the issue as it's happening, at least, not in the conventional sense of the term.
Which brings me to the 2nd point. Ultimately, if we think of "conditioning" in the broadest sense, what we're "programmed to do" and what we want, is for the most part, a dwad.
Yes, this is all very well-worn ground for ya'.  If there is the conscious wanting to quit, and yet it continues, then the desire to continue is stronger than the desire to quit. Simple, simple. Regardless of being consciously aware of the risk, there can still be a split mind in which one consciously believes he is trying to quit but can't overcome some programmed, habitual, neural pathway driven habit. This is often done unconsciously as a means of not having to take responsibility for the behavior. Makes cents. |
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Oct 3, 2018 0:57:48 GMT
Not all habits -- even "bad habits" -- are really a problem, so you've focused the issue of habit to one that's likely somehow destructive, and that someone's made up their mind they want to change. That was the morph.
Behavior, is, of course, holistic. So often, like in the case of a physical addiction, a person simply making the choice to change that behavior isn't enough to keep some serious resistance to that choice from happening. So, for them to admit that they're hostage in this way is to my eye a simple self-honest admission of WIBIGO in the moment.
Well, not so honest really. True, the conflict is held in place unconsciously, but unconsciousness, itself, is based in dishonesty. In truth, one mind cannot really deceive itself. It's a game. Whelps, the way I see it, the conflict ends for the addict when they accept that they have to go through withdrawal. |
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Oct 3, 2018 1:03:17 GMT
The idea of the unproblematic habit is one that we're dealing with in the other sub-thread at this point: not all "vices", for instance, are harmful enough that they necessarily become problems.
Yes, I was thinking the same as you in that the issue becomes one of facing up to the notion of powerlessness. The addict suffering withdrawal symptoms can empower themselves by both accepting that the pain of the withdrawal is inevitable, but temporary, and that can probably even lead to less pain overall during the withdrawal.
Funny thing about withdrawal pain that's bound to be controversial: withdrawal pain is caused by the desire to continue taking the drug. It's basically mental blackmail. Weelll I think in this case you're stretching out the usefulness of " desire".
I'll cut to the chase and state the way I think you see things: that physical causality is only an appearance, and that the only cause is Consciousness. You seem to me to be implying that the state of the addicts body and nervous system aren't the cause of the withdrawal pain.
Regardless of how the causality is conceived, the change in the addicts condition will take time. During that time, they're going to feel that pain, regardless if they desire not to feel it. In fact, as you've pointed out, it's only if their desire to change is stronger than their desire for what they're addicted to that they'll feel that pain.
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 3, 2018 2:29:47 GMT
Well, not so honest really. True, the conflict is held in place unconsciously, but unconsciousness, itself, is based in dishonesty. In truth, one mind cannot really deceive itself. It's a game. Whelps, the way I see it, the conflict ends for the addict when they accept that they have to go through withdrawal. If it's genuine and sincere, there might be precious little left to keep the symptoms going beyond a collective belief that they must. |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 3, 2018 2:36:36 GMT
Funny thing about withdrawal pain that's bound to be controversial: withdrawal pain is caused by the desire to continue taking the drug. It's basically mental blackmail. Weelll I think in this case you're stretching out the usefulness of " desire".
I'll cut to the chase and state the way I think you see things: that physical causality is only an appearance, and that the only cause is Consciousness. You seem to me to be implying that the state of the addicts body and nervous system aren't the cause of the withdrawal pain.
Regardless of how the causality is conceived, the change in the addicts condition will take time. During that time, they're going to feel that pain, regardless if they desire not to feel it. In fact, as you've pointed out, it's only if their desire to change is stronger than their desire for what they're addicted to that they'll feel that pain.
Maybe craving is a betterer word. In any case, one can't negotiate with their own blackmail terms. IOW, if physical pain is being used to blackmail oneself into taking the drug, the desire is not to stop the pain until the drug is acquired. Mind can be a sick puppy sometimes. |
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Post by Figgles on Oct 3, 2018 4:21:56 GMT
Who else would self-inquiry apply to?? Right. It's just that that particular question imo, isn't necessarily the most direct way to address the interest. I've seen folks who are seemingly pretty far removed from SR grasp the gamesmanship involved in writing certain behaviors off as 'bad habits.' Really? As I see it, that seeing is inherent in the 'human adulthood' Jed McKenna references. It does indeed involve being conscious to the machinations of mind....but it also involves an interest in self honesty, sincerity itself. |
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Post by Figgles on Oct 3, 2018 4:36:36 GMT
Funny thing about withdrawal pain that's bound to be controversial: withdrawal pain is caused by the desire to continue taking the drug. It's basically mental blackmail. Weelll I think in this case you're stretching out the usefulness of " desire". I'll cut to the chase and state the way I think you see things: that physical causality is only an appearance, and that the only cause is Consciousness. You seem to me to be implying that the state of the addicts body and nervous system aren't the cause of the withdrawal pain.
Regardless of how the causality is conceived, the change in the addicts condition will take time. During that time, they're going to feel that pain, regardless if they desire not to feel it. In fact, as you've pointed out, it's only if their desire to change is stronger than their desire for what they're addicted to that they'll feel that pain.
That's not necessarily a given. Indeed, it's the way it appears to go for most, but that doesn't mean an immediate turnaround is not possible. |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 3, 2018 13:17:56 GMT
Weelll I think in this case you're stretching out the usefulness of " desire". I'll cut to the chase and state the way I think you see things: that physical causality is only an appearance, and that the only cause is Consciousness. You seem to me to be implying that the state of the addicts body and nervous system aren't the cause of the withdrawal pain.
Regardless of how the causality is conceived, the change in the addicts condition will take time. During that time, they're going to feel that pain, regardless if they desire not to feel it. In fact, as you've pointed out, it's only if their desire to change is stronger than their desire for what they're addicted to that they'll feel that pain.
That's not necessarily a given. Indeed, it's the way it appears to go for most, but that doesn't mean an immediate turnaround is not possible. Wayne liquorman comes to mind. |
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Post by Figgles on Oct 3, 2018 15:20:19 GMT
That's not necessarily a given. Indeed, it's the way it appears to go for most, but that doesn't mean an immediate turnaround is not possible. Wayne liquorman comes to mind. Cool. www.conscious.tv/text/21.htm |
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Oct 4, 2018 4:46:46 GMT
Whelps, the way I see it, the conflict ends for the addict when they accept that they have to go through withdrawal. If it's genuine and sincere, there might be precious little left to keep the symptoms going beyond a collective belief that they must. Yeah the whole "collective belief" dealio isn't one I'm on board with. |
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