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Post by Figgles on Aug 8, 2022 21:57:48 GMT
It did! And we've finally got Muttley back into the crux of the actual convo and not just calling foul from the sidelines....saying some good stuff...making some good points too Muttley, fwiw.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 8, 2022 22:12:00 GMT
Bingo! Because SR/awakening does impact experience, that kind of thing seems to be quite universal in terms of 'how' experience changes in SR.
I always say, if anything, being awake makes it ever more clear that the fact that anything at all is appearing out of emptiness is the biggest freakin' miracle there ever could be....Emptiness "somehow" (not knowable...misconceived to even ask!) is giving rise to somethingness....and it IS awe-inspiring. You don't need to add in some middle layer of mystic soup/substance that then infuses each appearing thing to get the experiential 'awe-factor.'
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Post by Figgles on Aug 8, 2022 22:15:21 GMT
I am in awe of how you said this Gopal! ....perfect. Agree completely. We've all been talking long enough, and particularly with folks like Enigma, we know their core message, so to mince their posts up to try to milk something out of what they are saying, to denote that somehow he is invoking separation, or saying something that really is not there, is just plain and simply disingenuous.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 8, 2022 22:20:46 GMT
If you see that the convos are entertaining, then why do you assume that the perseverance indicates an inability to let go, which I would take to mean "attachment"? So long as no one is suffering for their involvement, where's the issue? Big diff between being unable to stop the discussion vs. not wanting to stop the discussion. It's the difference between need based attachment vs. freedom. You are revealing your own personal judgments about ongoing debate/dharma battle. Freedom does not necessary mean the end to enjoyment of ongoing dharma battles.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 8, 2022 22:23:54 GMT
It's actually the opposite; The "Absolute knowing" position is a context mix. Relatively speaking, it's accepted/believed that all appearing persons are experiencing/perceiving....for the sage though, there are no longer any experiencing/perceiving entities...no existent things in their own right. Thus, the question of "other" perceivers...of perceiving things/entities, is misconceived. If the question is misconceived, then obviously so is the answer!
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Post by Figgles on Aug 8, 2022 22:25:39 GMT
Very nice.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 8, 2022 22:34:13 GMT
And all of that 'intuited' stuff that applies to the dragon-fly...those facts that you believe exist but are only knowable by some other sense beyond immediate physical senses, is still itself 'of the dream/experiential.' Beyond logic and reason is still a whole bunch of experiential stuff. Intuition is still of the phenomenal/experiential realm...same for ZD's "body-knowing." These "senses" seem to be transcendent or "beyond" mind, but really, they are not. Beyond mind is beyond all senses...beyond the appearing dragon-fly and the sense/idea that there is more to it to be known. The dream is a compelling one...no one ever said it wasn't.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 8, 2022 22:37:13 GMT
You're still making it sound as though appearance is "infused with" a conceptually True something. An appearance is not "made up of" divinity....not "infused with true nature" by virtue of being an expression of unbounded awareness.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 8, 2022 22:48:33 GMT
BS! It is NOT! I've allowed all sorts of leeway and opportunity for each to admit that they are merely pointing...and using those terms to explain how experience changes following SR. Each are claiming a 'beyond mind/beyond SVP' realization of Truth....a realization that is an adding to vs. a subtraction, that is something more than just the 'informing of mind,' that happens with SR.
Reefs in particular has been staid from the start: He knows other people (and objects) to be experiencing/perceiving as a result of his Ken show/cc. He regards that absolute certain knowing to be a realization....an absolute Truth.
Seeing the divinity in all of life...in all things and circumstance perceivable, is not the same as knowing for absolute certain that a person and a rock are both having their own unique perception/experience.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 9, 2022 5:35:31 GMT
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