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Post by Figgles on Jan 1, 2022 7:02:54 GMT
I know the difference between the idea of an objective world vs. 'the known/experienced world.' My point is, there is no 'actual' knowing/direct experience of two-worlds/multiple worlds, only one. A world that somehow exists beyond immediate perception/appearance of a world, is an assumption/surmising only. If Self has been realized, any question of such an objective world's existence, is seen to be misconceived....based upon the delusion/illusion of separation. The way you are speaking, you seem to be suggesting there is "actually" a world that exists beyond perception of 'the world.' Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your words...? There is experience of world. That cannot be denied. It doesn't matter if you call this experience apparent or misconceived. It is still what it is. Saying that it is apparent or misconceived changes nothing about the experience itself. The experience will not become modified by any particular understanding or labelling of the experience. This is merely philosophy. If there is nothing that is not the Self then world is also Self. If the Self is the only reality then the world is real also. Anything that is experienced is the reality. There is no such thing as illusion. Everything is consciousness whether unmanifest or manifest. Hey Satchi, welcome back! No argument there. Fwiw, I don't call the experience of a world 'misconceived' and never have. Seeing the world as appearance only DOES impact/change experience in the sense that there is freedom/liberation from it. A rather huge difference, actually. I don't use the terms 'real/unreal,' when I talk about Truth as they are rather meaningless. "Anything that is experienced is the reality,...no such thing as illusion," is what every seeker believes. Unless the fundamental reality is seen and separation is seen to be an illusion, seeking and the seeker continues on. yes, it's ALL consciousness, but that does not = identification with being a someone/something. I think this is pretty much the same place we left off when you left the forum last time. Happy New Year!
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Post by Figgles on Jan 1, 2022 7:04:59 GMT
I hope you are well and keeping sane in these insane times. thx for the kind thoughts 'satch, you've not been forgotten while you were gone. You're welcome to borrow my giant wooden sledgehammer if you're going to try to get through to the figster, but I'd rather recommend a copy of E's "The Power of Futility" ...Completely on board with that one...no sledgehammer necessary!
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Post by Figgles on Jan 1, 2022 7:08:30 GMT
There's no way I'm going to go back and troll (oops Fraudian typo) I mean trawl through the archive to see what's been discussed. Somehow I suspect the same topics come up again and again.Conversations about Nonduality are like that....the pointers are always very similar because they are pointing to the same...and the arguments against them are always very similar because they are coming from the same sense of imagined separation...ego, trying to hang on for dear life.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 1, 2022 7:17:00 GMT
I know the difference between the idea of an objective world vs. 'the known/experienced world.' My point is, there is no 'actual' knowing/direct experience of two-worlds/multiple worlds, only one. A world that somehow exists beyond immediate perception/appearance of a world, is an assumption/surmising only. If Self has been realized, any question of such an objective world's existence, is seen to be misconceived....based upon the delusion/illusion of separation. The way you are speaking, you seem to be suggesting there is "actually" a world that exists beyond perception of 'the world.' Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your words...? We assume other individuals exist in these kind of conversation, are you not? If so, sum of all the individual perception change is the change of whole world. Change of my perception and related people of mine = change of my world. Yes, there's an appearance of individuated experiences of the world, but that's all they are; appearance only. Which means, there is but one, singular known world....the appearance of other, individuated experiences of a world are a facet of that. If we're talking Truth...what is actually known....there is only "the world," not "my world and your/his/her world." Ultimately there is no experiencer behind the experience of a world....just a world appearing to no-one/no-thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2022 7:43:32 GMT
Hey Satchi, welcome back! No argument there. Fwiw, I don't call the experience of a world 'misconceived' and never have. Seeing the world as appearance only DOES impact/change experience in the sense that there is freedom/liberation from it. A rather huge difference, actually. I don't use the terms 'real/unreal,' when I talk about Truth as they are rather meaningless. "Anything that is experienced is the reality,...no such thing as illusion," is what every seeker believes. Unless the fundamental reality is seen and separation is seen to be an illusion, seeking and the seeker continues on. yes, it's ALL consciousness, but that does not = identification with being a someone/something. I think this is pretty much the same place we left off when you left the forum last time. Happy New Year! Happy New Year! It's always going to be from where we last left off 😀
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2022 11:26:54 GMT
There is experience of world. That cannot be denied. It doesn't matter if you call this experience apparent or misconceived. It is still what it is. Saying that it is apparent or misconceived changes nothing about the experience itself. The experience will not become modified by any particular understanding or labelling of the experience. This is merely philosophy. If there is nothing that is not the Self then world is also Self. If the Self is the only reality then the world is real also. Anything that is experienced is the reality. There is no such thing as illusion. Everything is consciousness whether unmanifest or manifest. "Anything that is experienced is the reality,...no such thing as illusion," is what every seeker believes. Unless the fundamental reality is seen and separation is seen to be an illusion, seeking and the seeker continues on. So if you realize that there is one indivisible fundamental reality, part of it is still an illusion? If that's true then how can reality be one and indivisible if the illusory part is divisible from that which is not illusory? So what you're saying is that even though there is no separation between ocean and wave because they're both water the waves are still an illusion because they appear and disappear. But when a wave appears it adds nothing to the ocean and when it merges back into the ocean it subtracts nothing from it. So where is the illusion?
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Jan 1, 2022 12:51:57 GMT
[And just when I'd finally come to the conclusion that all of these History Channel shows about bigfoot were nuthin' but silly 'ole manporn. I hope you are well and keeping sane in these insane times. Hey satch, good to see you.....I guess Thailand is as generally insane as many other countries at the moment? I'm currently in Scotland, which is moderately insane (less so than some places, more so than others).
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,340
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Post by Andrew on Jan 1, 2022 12:55:22 GMT
I know the difference between the idea of an objective world vs. 'the known/experienced world.' My point is, there is no 'actual' knowing/direct experience of two-worlds/multiple worlds, only one. A world that somehow exists beyond immediate perception/appearance of a world, is an assumption/surmising only. If Self has been realized, any question of such an objective world's existence, is seen to be misconceived....based upon the delusion/illusion of separation. The way you are speaking, you seem to be suggesting there is "actually" a world that exists beyond perception of 'the world.' Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your words...? We assume other individuals exist in these kind of conversation, are you not? If so, sum of all the individual perception change is the change of whole world. Change of my perception and related people of mine = change of my world. I see thousands of people every day on twitter.....they are part of my perception then, yes? What about when I read about a whole country of people....they are then part of my perception...? I guess I don't understand where the line begins and ends for you...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2022 13:42:36 GMT
I hope you are well and keeping sane in these insane times. Hey satch, good to see you.....I guess Thailand is as generally insane as many other countries at the moment? I'm currently in Scotland, which is moderately insane (less so than some places, more so than others). Hey Andy good to see you. A friend of mine works for the Scottish enterprise board and his ultimate boss is Nicola who he refers to as Dear Leader. She couldn't stop thousands of Scots nipping off to Newscastle for New years Eve. Lol. Although Thailand is run by a military dictatorship they are however more open about some topics like this compared to the British MSM. www.thaipbsworld.com/927-million-baht-baht-paid-to-over-8000-people-suffering-side-effects-from-covid-vaccinations/
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Post by Figgles on Jan 1, 2022 17:51:36 GMT
"Anything that is experienced is the reality,...no such thing as illusion," is what every seeker believes. Unless the fundamental reality is seen and separation is seen to be an illusion, seeking and the seeker continues on. So if you realize that there is one indivisible fundamental reality, part of it is still an illusion? If that's true then how can reality be one and indivisible if the illusory part is divisible from that which is not illusory? So what you're saying is that even though there is no separation between ocean and wave because they're both water the waves are still an illusion because they appear and disappear. But when a wave appears it adds nothing to the ocean and when it merges back into the ocean it subtracts nothing from it. So where is the illusion? Appearances themselves are not illusions. Imagined separation, IS. But yes, even delusion....even the experience of imagining separation...even the mis-taking of what you are to be a bound, fixed, finite some-thing, even that is included in "Oneness." It's never been my position that the 'wave' in the ocean/wave metaphor, is illusive. I say it's an "appearance," arising within the ocean...having no separate existence of it's own...relying on the existence of "ocean" for it's (temporaral!) appearance.
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