|
Post by Figgles on Jan 1, 2022 18:32:10 GMT
I know the difference between the idea of an objective world vs. 'the known/experienced world.' My point is, there is no 'actual' knowing/direct experience of two-worlds/multiple worlds, only one. A world that somehow exists beyond immediate perception/appearance of a world, is an assumption/surmising only. If Self has been realized, any question of such an objective world's existence, is seen to be misconceived....based upon the delusion/illusion of separation. The way you are speaking, you seem to be suggesting there is "actually" a world that exists beyond perception of 'the world.' Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your words...? There is experience of world. That cannot be denied. It doesn't matter if you call this experience apparent or misconceived. It is still what it is. Saying that it is apparent or misconceived changes nothing about the experience itself. The experience will not become modified by any particular understanding or labelling of the experience. This is merely philosophy. If there is nothing that is not the Self then world is also Self. If the Self is the only reality then the world is real also. Anything that is experienced is the reality. There is no such thing as illusion. Everything is consciousness whether unmanifest or manifest.Am I mistaken, or is your expressed position here that; There is no waking up/seeing through delusion/illusion?...there is no importance at all to realizing the ephemeral, empty nature of the appearing world....that the world arises within/to that which is not ephemeral and fleeting? If there's no such thing as illusion, then by virtue of that, there's no such thing as realizing separation to be false. Which means the sense of being a separate entity that exists in it's own right in a world of separate things that also exist independently, in their own right....the energy then of a seeker who seeks for freedom, can never be quelled or become absent, and that is just not so. The mistake of imagined separation is what gets seen through in the realization of Self. The illusion is never anything more than a mistake of mind, but regardless, it is very powerful in that colors the totality of experience....it means the locus of seeing is imagined as being through the eyes of a separate entity, whereas in SR, the 'locus of seeing/seat of experience' (if we can even call it that!) is now beyond...unbridled...unbounded....untethered to any-thing...any-one. If you actually believe that Self realization/seeing through separation can happen, I'd like to hear what you definition of that is, because your post above makes it sound as though you regard the seeker state of taking the world and all perceivables as having inherent, fundamental existence of their own is equal to realization of Self. If so, that means there is no difference at all between seeking for freedom vs. being free.
|
|
Tenka
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 3,647
|
Post by Tenka on Jan 1, 2022 20:24:18 GMT
So if you realize that there is one indivisible fundamental reality, part of it is still an illusion? If that's true then how can reality be one and indivisible if the illusory part is divisible from that which is not illusory? So what you're saying is that even though there is no separation between ocean and wave because they're both water the waves are still an illusion because they appear and disappear. But when a wave appears it adds nothing to the ocean and when it merges back into the ocean it subtracts nothing from it. So where is the illusion? Appearances themselves are not illusions. Imagined separation, IS. From what I recall however is that appearances are just appearances . When there is talk about what we are ... what appears in consciousness is just that . Nothing more nothing less . So when someone loves their siblings, their wife or husband, it's only an appearance within consciousness . So nothing is real per se even if one doesn't want to use the terms . It's either a true account of what you are or it isn't . As Satch pointed out .. if there is no separation then there is no illusion. This has been my point for years . There hasn't been the need to take a stance in the SVP when there is what you are individualised experiencing life with that understanding . I see things have changed dramatically since covid on this forum with people concerned about the nature of things in society and taking your power back . A few years prior there would of been the argument that things are just arising in consciousness as appearances of covid . It's amazing how things change when reality bites
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Jan 1, 2022 20:42:19 GMT
Appearances themselves are not illusions. Imagined separation, IS. From what I recall however is that appearances are just appearances . When there is talk about what we are ... what appears in consciousness is just that . Nothing more nothing less . What the "Just" is in reference to is that an appearance does not have inherent existence itself, but rather, it relies upon that which does...that which abides. It's not a means of 'denigrating' experience as something not worry of interest or caring. What do you mean bey 'real'? As an appearance, it "really is" appearing/arising. The issue with taking yourself to 'be' an ephemeral some-thing that is appearing, is that in doing so you are "identified with form," mistaking the sense of visual seeing through the eyes of a limited body/person with that body/person being the seat of experience, which means you are not able to see the Truth...not able to see that it's all (even the sense of a body/person that sees, feels, etc) is an arising within something greater...something that abides and does not change...something that continuously underscores ALL appearance. "Individualized experience," is an in the dream/relative idea that hinges upon the idea of "multiple experiences/experiencers." In Truth, there is but one, singular, known experience, all others are appearance only. In the relative context we can talk about multiple experience as that's a facet of the unfolding, appearing story, but if we're talking about what is actually so, all there really is to be known, is "this" immediate, arising experience and this abiding ground that's it's arising within...all One. I disagree. The folks here who talk ND, have always said that being awake to the dream does not mean the end of interest and caring about the dream. That's been a huge straw-man that continues to be propped up by those who take issue with nonduality teachings/pointers. If anything, being awake to the dream means greater clarity than ever about the role that love and acceptance plays in the stories of life.
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Jan 1, 2022 20:46:02 GMT
Tenka: "If there is no separation, there is no illusion."
The "illusion" = the mistaken sense/belief that there IS separation! Once that false idea is gone, indeed, there is no illusion/delusion anymore.
|
|
|
Post by ghostofmuttley on Jan 1, 2022 21:25:28 GMT
Figs and spongy got red pilled, E' got black pilled, but this inexplicably led him into some genuinely profound poetry on the matter. Farmer is full-on mask nazi and Gopal is clearly suffering from the brain fog of vax injury which can be discerned by what he posts. Hard to tell with andy, I mean .. that guy, yanno'? I am so sorry that I triggered your inner wolf on the day of new year!
But it's okay, You were asking me in ST whether I can imagine the possibility of there is no rollercoaster. Can you answer me why you think there is no rollercoaster. I know you have written in ST like this because ZD doesn't support rollercoaster, but here Enigma, figgles everybody supports rollercoaster, don't know what you write here.
lolz descriptions of meditation are quite poetic, insightful, and reveal a depth of experience that is certainly far beyond mine. But, he seems to me to make the implicit assumption that everyone who sits and simply attends the present as it is will eventually become uncomfortable. Can you imagine the possibility that there might be people for whom this simply isn't true? And then as you expected ZD starts to appreciate you here
Yes. It appears that there's no reference for what's being pointed to. A roller coaster realization, alone, just doesn't go far enough. One of these days it might be realized that what imagines a roller coaster is, Itself, beyond imagining.
No, I never wrote that. If you want to have a deeper dialog on the issue, then pay close attention to and respond to what I actually wrote. Also, don't forget this. Life's ups and downs haven't been all that extreme for me for some time now, so I don't refer to them with such an extreme metaphor as a rollercoaster.
|
|
Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,340
|
Post by Andrew on Jan 1, 2022 22:12:03 GMT
Hey satch, good to see you.....I guess Thailand is as generally insane as many other countries at the moment? I'm currently in Scotland, which is moderately insane (less so than some places, more so than others). Hey Andy good to see you. A friend of mine works for the Scottish enterprise board and his ultimate boss is Nicola who he refers to as Dear Leader. She couldn't stop thousands of Scots nipping off to Newscastle for New years Eve. Lol. Although Thailand is run by a military dictatorship they are however more open about some topics like this compared to the British MSM. www.thaipbsworld.com/927-million-baht-baht-paid-to-over-8000-people-suffering-side-effects-from-covid-vaccinations/haha yeah I also heard that there were coachloads of people crossing the border to celebrate, two fingers up at Sturgeon! At least Thailand seems to be willing to acknowledge the issue openly, and also there's some accountability, and that's a lot more than can be said for many countries.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2022 0:21:15 GMT
So if you realize that there is one indivisible fundamental reality, part of it is still an illusion? If that's true then how can reality be one and indivisible if the illusory part is divisible from that which is not illusory? So what you're saying is that even though there is no separation between ocean and wave because they're both water the waves are still an illusion because they appear and disappear. But when a wave appears it adds nothing to the ocean and when it merges back into the ocean it subtracts nothing from it. So where is the illusion? Appearances themselves are not illusions. Imagined separation, IS. But yes, even delusion....even the experience of imagining separation...even the mis-taking of what you are to be a bound, fixed, finite some-thing, even that is included in "Oneness." What is your definition of illusion? Mine is that an illusion is that which appears and disappears and which is impermanent. So according to my definition appearances are illusions. An illusion doesn't mean there is nothing there. Cearly we experience and perceive objects, but because these objects appear and disappear they are illusions. It's not clear to me why you think appearances aren't illusions but imagining separation is. Perhaps you had better define what separation is. Separation means there are two things apart from each other. What I would like to know is this. If there is no separate self what is it not separate from? You can only have separation if something is separate from something else. What is that something else? And how can there be the mistake of separation if there is oneness. Surely oneness must exclude any such delusion that there is something separate otherwise there wouldn't be oneness. If there really is oneness then no such questions could arise about separation. If there is oneness you won't be entertained by such notions of non separation in the same way that if you have a million dollars in the bank you won't be entertained by notions of being broke.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2022 1:08:54 GMT
There is experience of world. That cannot be denied. It doesn't matter if you call this experience apparent or misconceived. It is still what it is. Saying that it is apparent or misconceived changes nothing about the experience itself. The experience will not become modified by any particular understanding or labelling of the experience. This is merely philosophy. If there is nothing that is not the Self then world is also Self. If the Self is the only reality then the world is real also. Anything that is experienced is the reality. There is no such thing as illusion. Everything is consciousness whether unmanifest or manifest.Am I mistaken, or is your expressed position here that; There is no waking up/seeing through delusion/illusion?...there is no importance at all to realizing the ephemeral, empty nature of the appearing world....that the world arises within/to that which is not ephemeral and fleeting? If there's no such thing as illusion, then by virtue of that, there's no such thing as realizing separation to be false. Which means the sense of being a separate entity that exists in it's own right in a world of separate things that also exist independently, in their own right....the energy then of a seeker who seeks for freedom, can never be quelled or become absent, and that is just not so. The mistake of imagined separation is what gets seen through in the realization of Self. The illusion is never anything more than a mistake of mind, but regardless, it is very powerful in that colors the totality of experience....it means the locus of seeing is imagined as being through the eyes of a separate entity, whereas in SR, the 'locus of seeing/seat of experience' (if we can even call it that!) is now beyond...unbridled...unbounded....untethered to any-thing...any-one. If you actually believe that Self realization/seeing through separation can happen, I'd like to hear what you definition of that is, because your post above makes it sound as though you regard the seeker state of taking the world and all perceivables as having inherent, fundamental existence of their own is equal to realization of Self. If so, that means there is no difference at all between seeking for freedom vs. being free. What you describe are intellectual ideas about reality like seeing through illusions. Who or what is seeing through illusions? This is duality? The very idea that there is someone who thinks there is no separation IS separation and dualistic. The living reality is to be in the natural state, that is all. And that is to know you are unbounded, unlimited awareness. It changes nothing about the world of appearance because that appearance is also awareness expressed as form. That is oneness. To entertain notions that there is no separate self is not oneness. That is a dualistic idea. If there truly is oneness then there is no time or space to entertain notions of non-separation. it is misconceived to even think of it. If you even think about non separation then you are having conceptual ideas in time. Those ideas about non-separation cannot be the truth therefore because you are presenting a process of understanding and oneness and unboundedness is beyond any understanding or concepts. From that perspective oneness, if it could speak it's is going to tell you to get the hell out of here with your ideas about non-separation.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2022 2:51:13 GMT
Appearances themselves are not illusions. Imagined separation, IS. From what I recall however is that appearances are just appearances . When there is talk about what we are ... what appears in consciousness is just that . Nothing more nothing less . So when someone loves their siblings, their wife or husband, it's only an appearance within consciousness . So nothing is real per se even if one doesn't want to use the terms . It's either a true account of what you are or it isn't . As Satch pointed out .. if there is no separation then there is no illusion. This has been my point for years . There hasn't been the need to take a stance in the SVP when there is what you are individualised experiencing life with that understanding . I see things have changed dramatically since covid on this forum with people concerned about the nature of things in society and taking your power back . A few years prior there would of been the argument that things are just arising in consciousness as appearances of covid . It's amazing how things change when reality bites Exactly! The idea of taking a stance on SVP makes no sense if the reality is oneness. If you take a stance and say, "I know there is no separation" you are immediately introducing separation and duality because in order to have knowledge of non separation or separation you need to have two objects that are not separate or separate. If you see no difference between limited self and awareness then the question of non separation is meaningless. There is only this (in all its forms) which is what you are.
|
|
Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
|
Post by Enigma on Jan 2, 2022 5:39:26 GMT
Q. What's the difference between a conspiracy theory and reality? A. About 6 months Did you get that from Charlie Ward?
|
|