|
Post by Figgles on Nov 12, 2018 3:00:36 GMT
Exactly. Well said. "Kensho" and "CC experience" would be an example of those varying kinds of 'woo-woos' that put one on just such an imaginary map. Indeed. Just look at the text walls of ZD's where he describes his CC's and Kensho experiences. Bingo!!! with a cherry ontop! Yes. In some cases there is a 'relief factor' as you say there, but as has been demonstrated in this "kensho" argument, sometimes there is also the 'awe' factor. The woo-woo experience is mistaken for a realization simply because one was left so breathless and awestruck....'Gee, if it made me feel like THAT, it has to be transcendent' kinda thing. Read that one over, very slowly, a few times.
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Nov 12, 2018 17:22:01 GMT
While it may 'seem' as though the intuitive/psychic sense is somehow beyond or prior to experience, because it reveals aspects of experience that defy what we regard to be the 'normal/regular' senses, it's actually not.
"Psychic powers" are indeed just another of the senses, thus, they are not actually transcendent of the experiential realm. Psychic power is 'experienced.'
Again, you used to know this stuff....the difference between realizatinal/transcendent vs. experiential. What the heck happened?
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Nov 12, 2018 19:04:52 GMT
The way I would describe it, it's the seeing through of the SVP (seeing the falsity) and the absence/void in the wake of that, that gives way to seeing "the divine love, vastness, intelligence."
I too have 'experienced' "It's all Love," but I also acknowledge that fundamental to that experiential knowing/seeing, is an absence, not an actual presence of quality. Those terms 'love, vastness, intelligence' are just approximations, mere, futile attempts to conceptually capture that which defies such...thus, I fully acknowledge both the experiential nature of the knowing that 'it's all Love'...as well as those words just being a pointer to the actuality, which is beyond words, beyond ideas.
The experience itself is indeed, awe-inspiring, mind blowing, and beautiful beyond description, however, it's also important to see, it's also just mind's way of taking what is actually an absence...taking that which cannot be grasped by thought, ideation, mind, and putting it into graspable terms...into something has experiential 'meaning.'
If you've ever read E's poetry, or read his posts where he describes his relationship with Marie...or talks about squirrel satsangs and such, it's pretty clear E is no stranger to 'the vastness, the intelligence, the love.' The difference between him and you is that he understands those terms are just pointers, not the actuality.....he understands that those are ideas that attempt to describe 'what is,' vs. the actuality of 'what is.' He understands those descriptors are themselves experiential insights, experiential apprehensions that attempt to describe the indescribable vs. actual Truth realizations.
And all of that said, I still don't know how you get from "it's all Love" to "I know for absolute certain that every appearing thing is alive, conscious, perceiving, expriencing." It's as though you conceptualized a pointer twice over.
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Nov 21, 2018 0:58:54 GMT
The way I would describe it, it's the seeing through of the SVP (seeing the falsity) and the absence/void in the wake of that, that gives way to seeing "the divine love, vastness, intelligence." I too have 'experienced' "It's all Love," but I also acknowledge that fundamental to that experiential knowing/seeing, is an absence, not an actual presence of quality. Those terms 'love, vastness, intelligence' are just approximations, mere, futile attempts to conceptually capture that which defies such...thus, I fully acknowledge both the experiential nature of the knowing that 'it's all Love'...as well as those words just being a pointer to the actuality, which is beyond words, beyond ideas. The experience itself is indeed, awe-inspiring, mind blowing, and beautiful beyond description, however, it's also important to see, it's also just mind's way of taking what is actually an absence...taking that which cannot be grasped by thought, ideation, mind, and putting it into graspable terms...into something has experiential 'meaning.' If you've ever read E's poetry, or read his posts where he describes his relationship with Marie...or talks about squirrel satsangs and such, it's pretty clear E is no stranger to 'the vastness, the intelligence, the love.' The difference between him and you is that he understands those terms are just pointers, not the actuality.....he understands that those are ideas that attempt to describe 'what is,' vs. the actuality of 'what is.' He understands those descriptors are themselves experiential insights, experiential apprehensions that attempt to describe the indescribable vs. actual Truth realizations. And all of that said, I still don't know how you get from "it's all Love" to "I know for absolute certain that every appearing thing is alive, conscious, perceiving, expriencing." It's as though you conceptualized a pointer twice over. Bump.
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Nov 23, 2018 17:09:01 GMT
Bullshit. The 'experience' you describe after itself, clearly indicates a 'happening in time.' If there's a beginning to the "kensho" and an ending that can be clearly put into words, what you're talkin is NOT truth, but rather, more dream-scape stuff.
The Truth can only be pointed to. The fact that you are unsatisfied with "No-thing is conscious" is because you have conflated experience with realization. Realizations see past/beyond/through appearance, whereas mystical experience, when one falls prey to believing it to be a realization, attributes substance to experience.
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Dec 23, 2018 20:06:47 GMT
If that was all you came away with following your CC, then I'd agree, you are talking 'realization.' "reality is not what I thought it was" is a seeing through, negation, as is 'true nature is absent boundary/limitation.' Both of those are seeing what 'is not so.'
You clearly seem now to be backing away from your original assertion where you claimed to come away from the CC/Kensho with affirmative knowledge 'about' the phenomenal world, both as a whole, and each an every arising form/object.
Remember...? You insisted that you now know appearing things/objects to be "alive, conscious, experiencing, perceiving"....as that was what was revealed in your Kensho/CC? You used your kensho/CC experience to argue against the assertion that all that appears is empty of Truth...that we cannot/do not know if the appearing person before us is actually conscious, experiencing, perceiving as he appears to be.
In actuality, there is no Truth realization that reveals an appearance to be Truthy.
There is a Truth realization that reveals that nothing that happens within the dream/story actually causes anything else that happens. More specifically, Truth Realization is not 'caused' by anything that happens in experience. If a mystical experience is arising in tandem with actual realization, it's more apt to say that the realization is the 'cause/catalyst' to the mystical experience, but even that is going too far. What we can say is that the mystical experience is mind's way of trying to frame Truth into something it can chew on. Nothing wrong with that...it happens...but it's important to see that for what it is and to not conflate an experience, however special it may be, with Truth realization.
|
|
Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
|
Post by Enigma on Dec 24, 2018 0:15:11 GMT
I have had numerous Cosmic Consciousness experiences, OBE's, mystical experiences where the 'me' seemingly dissolved into a sea of love, and for a time I actually did regard these experiences themselves to be "Truth," as in their wake they left such a deep sense of reverence and awe, however, there is a realization that transcends any and all experiences, however awe inspiring they may be, and once that illumination happens, even the most beautiful, transcendent seeming of experiences are understood to be inherently empty. This realization in particular, of the inherent emptiness of even the most beautific of experiences one could ever have, is one, that if there's a remnant of 'the person' still hanging, has the propensity to leave a sense of deep emotional depression even terror, in it's wake. There's a reason why folks want so desperately to make those beautiful, awe inspiring, mystical, magical experiences something more than 'just' an experience. They quite literally are using that one exception re: experiential content to keep themselves from having to fully see and acknowledge the utter and complete 'emptiness' of all of this. In edging up even a little bit close to that seeing in it's totality, The residual 'person' will interpret that as 'no hope, no light, the end.' Whereas, the view from (S)elf, has none of those personal judgements attached...thus, none of the depression, fear. Yes, it's only in losing the world that the world is gained.
|
|
Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
|
Post by Enigma on Dec 24, 2018 0:33:13 GMT
Wow...that was 2013. Quite a divergence from where you now stand. 'Unicorn land' indeed. I occurs to me that Reefs underwent the same kind of change you did, and at about the same time I think, except in reverse. You woke up and he fell asleep. Hmmmmmm.
|
|
Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
|
Post by Enigma on Dec 24, 2018 0:38:02 GMT
Exactly. Well said. "Kensho" and "CC experience" would be an example of those varying kinds of 'woo-woos' that put one on just such an imaginary map. Indeed. Just look at the text walls of ZD's where he describes his CC's and Kensho experiences. Bingo!!! with a cherry ontop! Yes. In some cases there is a 'relief factor' as you say there, but as has been demonstrated in this "kensho" argument, sometimes there is also the 'awe' factor. The woo-woo experience is mistaken for a realization simply because one was left so breathless and awestruck....'Gee, if it made me feel like THAT, it has to be transcendent' kinda thing. Read that one over, very slowly, a few times. Wow, that's the Reefs I remember. I miss him.
|
|
Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
|
Post by Enigma on Dec 24, 2018 1:11:47 GMT
Bullshit. The 'experience' you describe after itself, clearly indicates a 'happening in time.' If there's a beginning to the "kensho" and an ending that can be clearly put into words, what you're talkin is NOT truth, but rather, more dream-scape stuff. The Truth can only be pointed to. The fact that you are unsatisfied with "No-thing is conscious" is because you have conflated experience with realization. Realizations see past/beyond/through appearance, whereas mystical experience, when one falls prey to believing it to be a realization, attributes substance to experience. Yuppers. Obviously, Kensho is a time bound experience of no-time. Which doesn't make it timeless, it makes it an experience.
|
|