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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 13:57:19 GMT
Yay Michigan! (Blue and maize & green and white) and yeah, keep the carts on the path a hundred yards in I sense Trump is scared to death. How is he going to explain what's about to unfold to the Koch brothers? Meanwhile, 14,000,000 are starving in Yemen. He hasn't even flinched. Not even an acknowledgement that this is taking place. It's not a relaxed alertness. It's fear. I doubt he scared. Why would he be? He probably doesn't even care if a Blue Wave occurs next Tuesday. He'll take credit for any wins, and blame any loses on 'not embracing Trump enough' (or ignore any situations which can't be spun that way). And even if the Dems take Congress, its not like he has a legislative agenda which would then somehow be in jeopardy (except for more tax cuts, and the dissolution of regulations, for himself and his friends). And he also would likely enjoy having a new enemy to rail against as he gears up for 2020. But yeah, the poor Yemenis (and billions of other folks) are likely going to be shit out of luck for the foreseeable future.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 14:33:20 GMT
A piece of work like Donny sure does generate the ammo for an impersonal, third-party psychological diagnosis based on his public persona. No doubt, the boy's got issues. But what's just as fascinating about this is the rage he's eliciting in the opposition, which, if you stop underestimating him, you can see was and remains a completely deliberate and ongoing trap for his opponents. They'd be wise to get acquainted with the old adage "you've become what you're fighting against".
Also, there's been quite a bit of dysfunction in the American political system for my entire adult life, and historically, it's really always been there, and not just in the American system, which, arguably (if taken in a greater context that goes beyond politics, and with the right relative metrics), is about the best the planet has ever produced. Really, what I see happening here -- on both sides -- is the blossoming of an outward expression of a long-simmering internal rot. You see, narcissism, like any other personality disorder, is a matter of degree, and anyone who decides to run for POTUS has what's at the core of it in unbroken spades. My personal opinion is that the modern personalities that saw a minima of this were Obama and Carter, but honey, that ain't sayin' much. Whatever. Well, we'll all either take a collective step back and a universal good deep breath, and pull back from the brink. Or not. In any event, that a NYC real-estate developer found political success as an underdog populist is one of the most fascinating ironies I've ever seen play out in my lifetime, and don't doubt that this guy has the capacity to evoke genuine feelings of what seems like love -- via pity, and also, a sense of self-validaton -- from a wide swath of the populace. You can make and wallow in your judgements of these people if you want, but that's what got us all here in the first place. And the next time you accuse him of being a liar, remember, that the most effective lies have a minimum of provable falsity, and this is something that any political or other media voice that is loud enough for you to hear would have had to have learned long before the hearing, or else you would never have heard them.
I'm not in a mood to divvy up your post into addressable points, so I'll just throw out some random musings. Yes, Donnie is nowhere near as dumb as he appears to be on TV. And yes, many people underestimate his skills, like redirecting the conversation, and exploiting peoples fears and emotions. Yes, the US has prospered unlike any other civilization since perhaps the Romans. (in spite of, at times, a dysfunctional government) And yes, as in many cases, you can become what you're fighting against, like beating the drama drum even after the drama had subsided.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 14:56:43 GMT
I doubt he scared. Why would he be? He probably doesn't even care if a Blue Wave occurs next Tuesday. He'll take credit for any wins, and blame any loses on 'not embracing Trump enough' (or ignore any situations which can't be spun that way). And even if the Dems take Congress, its not like he has a legislative agenda which would then somehow be in jeopardy (except for more tax cuts, and the dissolution of regulations, for himself and his friends). And he also would likely enjoy having a new enemy to rail against as he gears up for 2020. But yeah, the poor Yemenis (and billions of other folks) are likely going to be shit out of luck for the foreseeable future. We'll see what happens when Mueller appears after the election. Wanna chip in with me and send him some toilet paper? A lot of folks have pinned their hopes for justice to the Special Counsel office. And Mueller seems to be a true patriot, and an honorable man, but I doubt he would ever "become what he's fighting against". He's not likely to veer from established Dept. of Justice policies and directives, even if that meant his report never becomes public. He will follow the law. The peeps he can charge through the grand jury will get their day in court, but any political consequences, however, are outside of his purview.
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Nov 2, 2018 18:41:31 GMT
A piece of work like Donny sure does generate the ammo for an impersonal, third-party psychological diagnosis based on his public persona. No doubt, the boy's got issues. But what's just as fascinating about this is the rage he's eliciting in the opposition, which, if you stop underestimating him, you can see was and remains a completely deliberate and ongoing trap for his opponents. They'd be wise to get acquainted with the old adage "you've become what you're fighting against".
Also, there's been quite a bit of dysfunction in the American political system for my entire adult life, and historically, it's really always been there, and not just in the American system, which, arguably (if taken in a greater context that goes beyond politics, and with the right relative metrics), is about the best the planet has ever produced. Really, what I see happening here -- on both sides -- is the blossoming of an outward expression of a long-simmering internal rot. You see, narcissism, like any other personality disorder, is a matter of degree, and anyone who decides to run for POTUS has what's at the core of it in unbroken spades. My personal opinion is that the modern personalities that saw a minima of this were Obama and Carter, but honey, that ain't sayin' much. Whatever. Well, we'll all either take a collective step back and a universal good deep breath, and pull back from the brink. Or not. In any event, that a NYC real-estate developer found political success as an underdog populist is one of the most fascinating ironies I've ever seen play out in my lifetime, and don't doubt that this guy has the capacity to evoke genuine feelings of what seems like love -- via pity, and also, a sense of self-validaton -- from a wide swath of the populace. You can make and wallow in your judgements of these people if you want, but that's what got us all here in the first place. And the next time you accuse him of being a liar, remember, that the most effective lies have a minimum of provable falsity, and this is something that any political or other media voice that is loud enough for you to hear would have had to have learned long before the hearing, or else you would never have heard them.
No doubt, folks are pushing back, but can you give some examples of actual 'rage'? I see that term as indicative of one who is so angry, he's lost to it....and in that, has lost sight of what's truly important....of what he actually 'wants' vs. what he is fighting against. One who is 'enraged' in that sense, as i see it, would be one who is far more embroiled in lashing back than in moving towards that which they value. Do you see the opposition as a whole as enraged, or just certain folks, certain groups...? .... And how can you tell one is truly 'enraged' vs. one who is deeply opposed to what's happening and has a sharp focus upon what is wanted, what is valued? It's all a matter of degree. Some obvious examples are the guy who shot up the congressional softball game and the people who are literally fighting one another at the rallies like Charlottesville. Another one, although perhaps less extreme, would be the call to harass public figures in restaurants. Obviously not all of these are specifically anti-Trump, but much of it, is, and there are plenty of examples where what he's said has been grossly distorted by an opposition clearly very over-eager to catch him at something. The birthright citizenship is the latest. While I agree with the opposition that messing with that isn't the best idea because of a potentially slippery-slope, there's a completely different interpretation of his intent, based on what he actually said, than what I've overheard casually from some of the ... shall we say, more "energized" opposition voices.
In the final analysis, resorting to " reducto ad Hitlarium" or passionately insisting that he's a racist, tends to be the smoke that suggests to me a Trump derangement fire. And don't get me wrong. I recognize that much of Donny's success was his appeal to some of the worst impulses of human nature, and that many of his most passionate supporters could equally be characterized as lost in the same haze of rage, just on a different side of the imaginary political tracks.
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muttley
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 4,394
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Post by muttley on Nov 2, 2018 18:47:45 GMT
A piece of work like Donny sure does generate the ammo for an impersonal, third-party psychological diagnosis based on his public persona. No doubt, the boy's got issues. But what's just as fascinating about this is the rage he's eliciting in the opposition, which, if you stop underestimating him, you can see was and remains a completely deliberate and ongoing trap for his opponents. They'd be wise to get acquainted with the old adage "you've become what you're fighting against".
Also, there's been quite a bit of dysfunction in the American political system for my entire adult life, and historically, it's really always been there, and not just in the American system, which, arguably (if taken in a greater context that goes beyond politics, and with the right relative metrics), is about the best the planet has ever produced. Really, what I see happening here -- on both sides -- is the blossoming of an outward expression of a long-simmering internal rot. You see, narcissism, like any other personality disorder, is a matter of degree, and anyone who decides to run for POTUS has what's at the core of it in unbroken spades. My personal opinion is that the modern personalities that saw a minima of this were Obama and Carter, but honey, that ain't sayin' much. Whatever. Well, we'll all either take a collective step back and a universal good deep breath, and pull back from the brink. Or not. In any event, that a NYC real-estate developer found political success as an underdog populist is one of the most fascinating ironies I've ever seen play out in my lifetime, and don't doubt that this guy has the capacity to evoke genuine feelings of what seems like love -- via pity, and also, a sense of self-validaton -- from a wide swath of the populace. You can make and wallow in your judgements of these people if you want, but that's what got us all here in the first place. And the next time you accuse him of being a liar, remember, that the most effective lies have a minimum of provable falsity, and this is something that any political or other media voice that is loud enough for you to hear would have had to have learned long before the hearing, or else you would never have heard them.
I'm not in a mood to divvy up your post into addressable points, so I'll just throw out some random musings. Yes, Donnie is nowhere near as dumb as he appears to be on TV. And yes, many people underestimate his skills, like redirecting the conversation, and exploiting peoples fears and emotions. Yes, the US has prospered unlike any other civilization since perhaps the Romans. (in spite of, at times, a dysfunctional government) And yes, as in many cases, you can become what you're fighting against, like beating the drama drum even after the drama had subsided. I think the one constant in my lifetime that best demonstrates what Steely Dan called "The Royal Scam" is the U.S. Debt. The Democrats make no secret of their preferences for more spending, but the Republicans run this game that they're the "fiscal conservatives" who want to "get government out of the way". The actual results tell a tale of rampant corruption, incompetence, arrogance, greed and a stone-cold disregard for the public good, across the entirety of the so-called "leadership", all along the political spectrum.
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Nov 2, 2018 19:01:35 GMT
We'll see what happens when Mueller appears after the election. Wanna chip in with me and send him some toilet paper? A lot of folks have pinned their hopes for justice to the Special Counsel office. And Mueller seems to be a true patriot, and an honorable man, but I doubt he would ever "become what he's fighting against". He's not likely to veer from established Dept. of Justice policies and directives, even if that meant his report never becomes public. He will follow the law. The peeps he can charge through the grand jury will get their day in court, but any political consequences, however, are outside of his purview. You don't think it's fishy that he walked out of his interview with Donny for FBI director right into the special counsel's job?
On the day after the election, there wasn't a single elected or appointed official in D.C. who wasn't uneasy about Trump, a rank outsider, which also explains the Session's recusal. My take is that the S.P. was set up to hold something over him, just in case. I also think that Comey was in a position that no other cop had ever been in, and the whole "Lock Her Up" thing was just completely appalling in what it portends for the potential future of the process. I mean, what, exactly, was the guy supposed to do? But the problem is, her and Bill brought this down on us with their actions, and not just the private e-mail server, but the 100's of millions of dollars they raised, mostly from foreign interests, during her time in the Obama administration.
Foreign influence in American affairs is hardly anything new, and this Mueller kabuki is a rather cynical play on the public's naivete and the opposition's willingness to believe anything negative about Mr. Hair. And oh, the ironies of the details underlying the warrants Mueller used to catch the convictions he did get are quite thick, indeed.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 2, 2018 19:06:33 GMT
It's all a matter of degree. Some obvious examples are the guy who shot up the congressional softball game and the people who are literally fighting one another at the rallies like Charlottesville. Another one, although perhaps less extreme, would be the call to harass public figures in restaurants. Okay..yeah, agreed, those I would call clear examples of 'rage' in action. I'd say any distortion is few and far between. Most of it comes straight from the horses mouth (or tweet) and speaks very clearly for itself. Okay. We see things quite differently then. I actually think he's given far more leeway and benefit of the doubt than he deserves. Can't believe he actually made it past that whole "I grab them by the pussy" bit. WTF. He exhibits pretty much every negative human trait that could be listed, right out there on full display, daily as I see it. Not much at all there in the way of redeeming qualities as I see it.
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muttley
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Post by muttley on Nov 2, 2018 19:10:45 GMT
It's all a matter of degree. Some obvious examples are the guy who shot up the congressional softball game and the people who are literally fighting one another at the rallies like Charlottesville. Another one, although perhaps less extreme, would be the call to harass public figures in restaurants. Okay..yeah, agreed, those I would call clear examples of 'rage' in action. I'd say any distortion is few and far between. Most of it comes straight from the horses mouth (or tweet) and speaks very clearly for itself. Okay. We see things quite differently then. I actually think he's given far more leeway and benefit of the doubt than he deserves. Can't believe he actually made it past that whole "I grab them by the pussy" bit. WTF. He exhibits pretty much every negative human trait that could be listed, right out there on full display, daily as I see it. Not much at all there in the way of redeeming qualities as I see it. Would you say the same about Bill Clinton? The one primary difference I see between Trump and the rest, is that he's so arrogant that he's never seen a need to hide his arrogance. This is one of the reasons he won: he spoke several flat-out truths that were just frustratingly absent from the dialog in the past. For example, that George W. invaded the wrong country.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 19:25:37 GMT
A lot of folks have pinned their hopes for justice to the Special Counsel office. And Mueller seems to be a true patriot, and an honorable man, but I doubt he would ever "become what he's fighting against". He's not likely to veer from established Dept. of Justice policies and directives, even if that meant his report never becomes public. He will follow the law. The peeps he can charge through the grand jury will get their day in court, but any political consequences, however, are outside of his purview. You don't think it's fishy that he walked out of his interview with Donny for FBI director right into the special counsel's job? On the day after the election, there wasn't a single elected or appointed official in D.C. who wasn't uneasy about Trump, a rank outsider, which also explains the Session's recusal. My take is that the S.P. was set up to hold something over him, just in case. I also think that Comey was in a position that no other cop had ever been in, and the whole "Lock Her Up" thing was just completely appalling in what it portends for the potential future of the process. I mean, what, exactly, was the guy supposed to do? But the problem is, her and Bill brought this down on us with their actions, and not just the private e-mail server, but the 100's of millions of dollars they raised, mostly from foreign interests, during her time in the Obama administration. Foreign influence in American affairs is hardly anything new, and this Mueller kabuki is a rather cynical play on the public's naivete and the opposition's willingness to believe anything negative about Mr. Hair. And oh, the ironies of the details underlying the warrants Mueller used to catch the convictions he did get are quite thick, indeed.
No, I don't find the Mueller interview for Director fishy at all, and you sound like Chris Ruddy from NewsMax. There is currently litigation in front of the DC Court of Appeals regarding Muellers legitimacy, so let's just wait for the white wigs to sort through all the evidence, shall we. But sure, no doubt, if the truth about millions of dirty DC dealings over the years ever became known, I'm sure we'd all spit and cuss and rage about it on the net somewhere.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 2, 2018 19:28:09 GMT
Okay..yeah, agreed, those I would call clear examples of 'rage' in action. I'd say any distortion is few and far between. Most of it comes straight from the horses mouth (or tweet) and speaks very clearly for itself. Okay. We see things quite differently then. I actually think he's given far more leeway and benefit of the doubt than he deserves. Can't believe he actually made it past that whole "I grab them by the pussy" bit. WTF. He exhibits pretty much every negative human trait that could be listed, right out there on full display, daily as I see it. Not much at all there in the way of redeeming qualities as I see it. Would you say the same about Bill Clinton? The one primary difference I see between Trump and the rest, is that he's so arrogant that he's never seen a need to hide his arrogance. This is one of the reasons he won: he spoke several flat-out truths that were just frustratingly absent from the dialog in the past. For example, that George W. invaded the wrong country. The same about Bill Clinton as in "he exhibits every negative trait that could be listed"? No. Bill Clinton, did not exhibit those traits that I see Trump exhibiting on a daily basis. Not even close. But I'd agree, that Trump is so arrogant (and lacking in basic social skills, general awareness about, interest in the feelings/concerns of others) that that alone puts him in his own category. And yes, I think at first, some did find his absence of filter to be refreshing, but I'm also betting there's all sorts of those same folks who would now be thrilled to have the old stuffed shirt, skilled and schooled in social etiquette, type leader representing the US. "Be careful what you wish for"...has an all too real meaning to many who said they wanted change.
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