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Post by Figgles on Apr 2, 2024 21:43:31 GMT
The awakened perspective reveals that apparent conditions that are judged to be "positive/good" are not necessary for feelings of peace, joy, happiness to arise. There can be contentment with life, and yes, even joyful happiness in the face of conditions that the me character may judge to be "disliked/negative."
LOA/deliberate creation asserts the erroneous idea that a joyful state of being cannot co-arise with apparent conditions that are judged to be imperfect/not liked, by mind...that 'like always attracts like.' A nice/good feeling = a nice/good condition. A bad/negative feeling = a bad/negative manifest condition.
LOA says that where there is a joyful state, there will always be apparent conditions that are "liked" by mind, and it's very easy to see, while they may not be the norm, there are still indeed folks who remain peaceful and contented despite conditions others deem to be intolerable.
It's only when there is identification with a separate someone/entity that state of being is inextricably linked to apparent conditions. It's a great example of mind driving the vehicle. When mind is no longer in the driver's seat, fundamental perfection reigns supreme over surface, apparent judgments and that means judgments only extend surface deep. That has a direct impact upon experiential feeling states. It means they only extend surface deep and ebb/flow freely, without stickiness.
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Post by Gopal on Apr 3, 2024 1:56:31 GMT
That's what I meant in my last paragraph, but as usual, you are always willing to refute whatever I say, therefore you started your argument. But that's okay. Chasing happens because of the discontent in this moment. And the problem is, this triggers lots of other chasing in our life, for an example, it creates the problem, and we are triggered to solve the problem(chasing) but it would never be solved. In fact, this is the created problem for us to solve, there is no real problem indeed. Applied to what I've said in last post, the bolded quite perfectly applies. A formulated desire/want, also happens because of the fundamental discontent with this moment. The AH quote posits a situation whereby there can be both a deep enough discontent with this moment that one would embark upon a practice to try to control thought/feeling in order to manifest what is desired, AND an absence of discontent with this moment. There's a failure to see that if there is an absence of discontent with this moment, then there is ALSO an absence of that depth of desire/want. Very simply, When the impetus to chase after something "different than what is," is no longer in play, need-based desires/wants are no longer in play. That means that an interest in pursuing a practice whereby you can supposedly create/control outcomes, would no longer be in play. (...and just in case you think otherwise, I am fully agreeing with you here.  ) Yes correct, I agree. |
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Post by Gopal on Apr 3, 2024 14:25:09 GMT
The awakened perspective reveals that apparent conditions that are judged to be "positive/good" are not necessary for feelings of peace, joy, happiness to arise. There can be contentment with life, and yes, even joyful happiness in the face of conditions that the me character may judge to be "disliked/negative." LOA/deliberate creation asserts the erroneous idea that a joyful state of being cannot co-arise with apparent conditions that are judged to be imperfect/not liked, by mind...that 'like always attracts like.' A nice/good feeling = a nice/good condition. A bad/negative feeling = a bad/negative manifest condition. LOA says that where there is a joyful state, there will always be apparent conditions that are "liked" by mind, and it's very easy to see, while they may not be the norm, there are still indeed folks who remain peaceful and contented despite conditions others deem to be intolerable. It's only when there is identification with a separate someone/entity that state of being is inextricably linked to apparent conditions. It's a great example of mind driving the vehicle. When mind is no longer in the driver's seat, fundamental perfection reigns supreme over surface, apparent judgments and that means judgments only extend surface deep. That has a direct impact upon experiential feeling states. It means they only extend surface deep and ebb/flow freely, without stickiness. There is no inner or outer. Story moves, as inner and outer. Happy side of the story has the events which makes you happy and unhappy side of the story has the events which makes you unhappy. The event which affects you in a certain way need not to affect the other people in the same way. |
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Post by Figgles on Apr 3, 2024 18:34:43 GMT
The awakened perspective reveals that apparent conditions that are judged to be "positive/good" are not necessary for feelings of peace, joy, happiness to arise. There can be contentment with life, and yes, even joyful happiness in the face of conditions that the me character may judge to be "disliked/negative." LOA/deliberate creation asserts the erroneous idea that a joyful state of being cannot co-arise with apparent conditions that are judged to be imperfect/not liked, by mind...that 'like always attracts like.' A nice/good feeling = a nice/good condition. A bad/negative feeling = a bad/negative manifest condition. LOA says that where there is a joyful state, there will always be apparent conditions that are "liked" by mind, and it's very easy to see, while they may not be the norm, there are still indeed folks who remain peaceful and contented despite conditions others deem to be intolerable. It's only when there is identification with a separate someone/entity that state of being is inextricably linked to apparent conditions. It's a great example of mind driving the vehicle. When mind is no longer in the driver's seat, fundamental perfection reigns supreme over surface, apparent judgments and that means judgments only extend surface deep. That has a direct impact upon experiential feeling states. It means they only extend surface deep and ebb/flow freely, without stickiness. There is no inner or outer. Story moves, as inner and outer. Happy side of the story has the events which makes you happy and unhappy side of the story has the events which makes you unhappy. The event which affects you in a certain way need not to affect the other people in the same way. Okay. I don't think there's anything you are saying there that defies the Truth of "One, singular expression." I agree, Within the story, which regardless of what appears within it as content, is ultimately, a singular expression (that cannot be fundamentally divided up into categories of some appearances being causal to others that are 'effects') there will indeed be specific personal "likes/dislikes" (based upon personal value judgments) that remain in SR. What you judge to be fine and dandy, I may indeed judge to be not okay and visa versa. And that means different feeling responses will arise accordingly. All of that, part and parcel of that "ultimately" singular expression. So I think we are still in full agreement. Question though; Does your view acknowledge and allow for a general state of "equanimity" that comes hand in hand with SR/wakefulness? Which means, that regardless of apparent event/phenomenal conditions, an "unhappy/not-liked" judgment/response, if/when it arises, will be surface only and does not extend to a depth of judgment that equals fundamental condemnation? My point being that in SR/wakefulness, fundamental perfection has been realized. That means, there is no longer judgment of the very fact of up/down nature of experience...of some stuff conforming with personal values/personal likes, other stuff not so much...of sometimes you win you some, sometimes you lose. In SR, feelings/emotions that ride upon personal value judgments only extend surface deep. Whereas, for the unawakened, those personal judgments, which are really the personal judgments of an SVP, extend to a fundamental depth. For an SVP, the very nature/up-down movement of life experience, the movement between polarities that hinge upon personal value judgments, is itself fundamentally judged to be wrong/bad...something that must cease in order to be okay. It is precisely this judgment that is at the crux of an interest to practice LOA/deliberate creation. The SVP erroneously believes that in order to be okay, to live a life of contentment, he must somehow control that basic, general up/down movement between polarities of liked/not liked. And that is of course ludicrous. The interest in controlling that up/down nature is itself a condemnation/rejection of the nature of the experience of life, itself. I think you are now clearly seeing this...it's not just that you are trying not to chase after desired outcomes, but you seem to have lost the interest in doing so, in tandem with seeing the utter futility and delusion behind such an interest...? It's been interesting to see over on ST how valiantly several folks challenge the very assertion of a natural "up/down"...."you win some/you lose some" movement, inherent to the unfolding, experiential story. It clearly displays how mind will fight against the fact that so long as there is experience, personal judgments, complete with accompanying sense of "like this/don't like that" will remain in play. The distinction that must be realized is that between personal value judgments that have separation at their helm, vs. personal value judgments that do not and are thus, surface only. |
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Post by Gopal on Apr 4, 2024 2:59:10 GMT
There is no inner or outer. Story moves, as inner and outer. Happy side of the story has the events which makes you happy and unhappy side of the story has the events which makes you unhappy. The event which affects you in a certain way need not to affect the other people in the same way. Okay. I don't think there's anything you are saying there that defies the Truth of "One, singular expression." I agree, Within the story, which regardless of what appears within it as content, is ultimately, a singular expression (that cannot be fundamentally divided up into categories of some appearances being causal to others that are 'effects') there will indeed be specific personal "likes/dislikes" (based upon personal value judgments) that remain in SR. What you judge to be fine and dandy, I may indeed judge to be not okay and visa versa. And that means different feeling responses will arise accordingly. All of that, part and parcel of that "ultimately" singular expression. So I think we are still in full agreement. Question though; Does your view acknowledge and allow for a general state of "equanimity" that comes hand in hand with SR/wakefulness? Which means, that regardless of apparent event/phenomenal conditions, an "unhappy/not-liked" judgment/response, if/when it arises, will be surface only and does not extend to a depth of judgment that equals fundamental condemnation? My point being that in SR/wakefulness, fundamental perfection has been realized. That means, there is no longer judgment of the very fact of up/down nature of experience...of some stuff conforming with personal values/personal likes, other stuff not so much...of sometimes you win you some, sometimes you lose. In SR, feelings/emotions that ride upon personal value judgments only extend surface deep. Whereas, for the unawakened, those personal judgments, which are really the personal judgments of an SVP, extend to a fundamental depth. For an SVP, the very nature/up-down movement of life experience, the movement between polarities that hinge upon personal value judgments, is itself fundamentally judged to be wrong/bad...something that must cease in order to be okay. It is precisely this judgment that is at the crux of an interest to practice LOA/deliberate creation. The SVP erroneously believes that in order to be okay, to live a life of contentment, he must somehow control that basic, general up/down movement between polarities of liked/not liked. And that is of course ludicrous. The interest in controlling that up/down nature is itself a condemnation/rejection of the nature of the experience of life, itself. I think you are now clearly seeing this...it's not just that you are trying not to chase after desired outcomes, but you seem to have lost the interest in doing so, in tandem with seeing the utter futility and delusion behind such an interest...? It's been interesting to see over on ST how valiantly several folks challenge the very assertion of a natural "up/down"...."you win some/you lose some" movement, inherent to the unfolding, experiential story. It clearly displays how mind will fight against the fact that so long as there is experience, personal judgments, complete with accompanying sense of "like this/don't like that" will remain in play. The distinction that must be realized is that between personal value judgments that have separation at their helm, vs. personal value judgments that do not and are thus, surface only. There is no personal judgment is here. I don't have any judgement towards what's happening. I am saying story is unfolding, it completely determines my condition and everything else. It moves me through happy and unhappy side of the rollercoaster. When I am in happy side of the rollercoaster, it creates the events which makes me happy, when I am in unhappy side of the rollercoaster, it creates the events which makes me unhappy. That's all. Story includes my liking and disliking. |
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Post by Figgles on Apr 4, 2024 5:02:01 GMT
Okay. I don't think there's anything you are saying there that defies the Truth of "One, singular expression." I agree, Within the story, which regardless of what appears within it as content, is ultimately, a singular expression (that cannot be fundamentally divided up into categories of some appearances being causal to others that are 'effects') there will indeed be specific personal "likes/dislikes" (based upon personal value judgments) that remain in SR. What you judge to be fine and dandy, I may indeed judge to be not okay and visa versa. And that means different feeling responses will arise accordingly. All of that, part and parcel of that "ultimately" singular expression. So I think we are still in full agreement. Question though; Does your view acknowledge and allow for a general state of "equanimity" that comes hand in hand with SR/wakefulness? Which means, that regardless of apparent event/phenomenal conditions, an "unhappy/not-liked" judgment/response, if/when it arises, will be surface only and does not extend to a depth of judgment that equals fundamental condemnation? My point being that in SR/wakefulness, fundamental perfection has been realized. That means, there is no longer judgment of the very fact of up/down nature of experience...of some stuff conforming with personal values/personal likes, other stuff not so much...of sometimes you win you some, sometimes you lose. In SR, feelings/emotions that ride upon personal value judgments only extend surface deep. Whereas, for the unawakened, those personal judgments, which are really the personal judgments of an SVP, extend to a fundamental depth. For an SVP, the very nature/up-down movement of life experience, the movement between polarities that hinge upon personal value judgments, is itself fundamentally judged to be wrong/bad...something that must cease in order to be okay. It is precisely this judgment that is at the crux of an interest to practice LOA/deliberate creation. The SVP erroneously believes that in order to be okay, to live a life of contentment, he must somehow control that basic, general up/down movement between polarities of liked/not liked. And that is of course ludicrous. The interest in controlling that up/down nature is itself a condemnation/rejection of the nature of the experience of life, itself. I think you are now clearly seeing this...it's not just that you are trying not to chase after desired outcomes, but you seem to have lost the interest in doing so, in tandem with seeing the utter futility and delusion behind such an interest...? It's been interesting to see over on ST how valiantly several folks challenge the very assertion of a natural "up/down"...."you win some/you lose some" movement, inherent to the unfolding, experiential story. It clearly displays how mind will fight against the fact that so long as there is experience, personal judgments, complete with accompanying sense of "like this/don't like that" will remain in play. The distinction that must be realized is that between personal value judgments that have separation at their helm, vs. personal value judgments that do not and are thus, surface only. There is no personal judgment is here. I don't have any judgement towards what's happening. I am saying story is unfolding, it completely determines my condition and everything else. It moves me through happy and unhappy side of the rollercoaster. When I am in happy side of the rollercoaster, it creates the events which makes me happy, when I am in unhappy side of the rollercoaster, it creates the events which makes me unhappy. That's all. Story includes my liking and disliking. Yes. I wasn't saying otherwise. "Liking/disliking" = "personal value judgments"...they are one & the same. The me character along with his value judgments/likes/dislikes, is part and parcel of the story...no argument there. |
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Post by Gopal on Apr 5, 2024 2:11:32 GMT
There is no personal judgment is here. I don't have any judgement towards what's happening. I am saying story is unfolding, it completely determines my condition and everything else. It moves me through happy and unhappy side of the rollercoaster. When I am in happy side of the rollercoaster, it creates the events which makes me happy, when I am in unhappy side of the rollercoaster, it creates the events which makes me unhappy. That's all. Story includes my liking and disliking. Yes. I wasn't saying otherwise. "Liking/disliking" = "personal value judgments"...they are one & the same. The me character along with his value judgments/likes/dislikes, is part and parcel of the story...no argument there. That makes me happy because after all these years, you begin to understand me. |
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Post by Figgles on Apr 14, 2024 5:30:42 GMT
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Post by Figgles on Apr 14, 2024 5:31:31 GMT
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Post by Figgles on May 9, 2024 4:10:33 GMT
It is in the nature of all manifestation that the good and the bad follow each other and in equal measure. The true refuge is only in the unmanifested. - Niz
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