Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969 
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Post by Enigma on May 19, 2018 23:48:38 GMT
Not much....lol...in fact, we could say, F - all!  Came across this Adyanshanti quote today....addresses this absence of knowledge nicely...love how he says, 'when you look deeply into this question, it actually destroys your world.' Perfect.... “This one question -- "What do I know for certain?"-- is tremendously powerful. When you look deeply into this question, it actually destroys your world. It destroys your whole sense of self, and it's meant to. You come to see that everything you think you know about yourself, everything you think you know about the world, is based on assumptions, beliefs, and opinions-- things you believe because you were taught or told that they were true. Until we start to see these false perceptions for what they really are, consciousness will be imprisoned within the dream state.” ― Adyashanti, The End of Your World: Uncensored Straight Talk on the Nature of Enlightenment Yup, nothing left but a greasy spot. If peeps aren't ready to see we can't know if others are conscious, there's no way they're ready for the greasy spot. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 19, 2018 17:25:34 GMT
Not much....lol...in fact, we could say, F - all! Came across this Adyanshanti quote today....addresses this absence of knowledge nicely...love how he says, 'when you look deeply into this question, it actually destroys your world.' Perfect.... “This one question -- "What do I know for certain?"-- is tremendously powerful. When you look deeply into this question, it actually destroys your world. It destroys your whole sense of self, and it's meant to. You come to see that everything you think you know about yourself, everything you think you know about the world, is based on assumptions, beliefs, and opinions-- things you believe because you were taught or told that they were true. Until we start to see these false perceptions for what they really are, consciousness will be imprisoned within the dream state.” ― Adyashanti, The End of Your World: Uncensored Straight Talk on the Nature of Enlightenment Yup, nothing left but a greasy spot. If peeps aren't ready to see we can't know if others are conscious, there's no way they're ready for the greasy spot. Am curious E, when you first saw it all rendered down to that greasy spot, or perhaps as you were getting closer to that point... was there a sense of loss, sadness, fear, associated at all? Any struggling to continue to find meaning within an experience that you now knew to be intrinsically absent meaning beyond what you personally assigned to it? Have been talking with a young person who says he's seen the emptiness several years ago, but still struggles with a painful sense of emptiness at times, due to seeing it's all empty. In his own words, "I've clearly seen that nothing in the material world can actually bring me happiness, because anything that is happening now, is going to at some point, change or disappear, and that the only actual importance or meaning to any of it, is what I assign to it, and at times, this has me struggling to feel motivated to do anything to further myself...why bother?" I've tried to explain that that pain arises of his identification with his thoughts/ideas/material knowledge, that says it's important for life to have intrinsic meaning, purpose, etc, and also his identification with being a doer (the false idea that it is him who is responsible for making motivation to action happen), that in truly grasping that those ideas too are empty and devoid of Truth, just part and parcel of the story, that sense of 'wrongness' itself will disappear. anything you'd add...other than all he needs is to fully SR? |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jul 19, 2018 23:01:01 GMT
Yup, nothing left but a greasy spot. If peeps aren't ready to see we can't know if others are conscious, there's no way they're ready for the greasy spot. Am curious E, when you first saw it all rendered down to that greasy spot, or perhaps as you were getting closer to that point... was there a sense of loss, sadness, fear, associated at all? Any struggling to continue to find meaning within an experience that you now knew to be intrinsically absent meaning beyond what you personally assigned to it? Have been talking with a young person who says he's seen the emptiness several years ago, but still struggles with a painful sense of emptiness at times, due to seeing it's all empty. In his own words, "I've clearly seen that nothing in the material world can actually bring me happiness, because anything that is happening now, is going to at some point, change or disappear, and that the only actual importance or meaning to any of it, is what I assign to it, and at times, this has me struggling to feel motivated to do anything to further myself...why bother?" I've tried to explain that that pain arises of his identification with his thoughts/ideas/material knowledge, that says it's important for life to have intrinsic meaning, purpose, etc, and also his identification with being a doer (the false idea that it is him who is responsible for making motivation to action happen), that in truly grasping that those ideas too are empty and devoid of Truth, just part and parcel of the story, that sense of 'wrongness' itself will disappear. anything you'd add...other than all he needs is to fully SR? A long time ago, I had a sudden and devastating experience of what I call the void. All I wanted to do was run, but there was nowhere to run to. The sense of hopelessness was total, though brief. In contrast, at a later time, there was a realization of the same thing that was earlier experienced, but instead of being terrifying, it was strangely freeing. As you suggest, the difference was in who or what was relating to the implications of that insight. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 20, 2018 16:57:32 GMT
Am curious E, when you first saw it all rendered down to that greasy spot, or perhaps as you were getting closer to that point... was there a sense of loss, sadness, fear, associated at all? Any struggling to continue to find meaning within an experience that you now knew to be intrinsically absent meaning beyond what you personally assigned to it? Have been talking with a young person who says he's seen the emptiness several years ago, but still struggles with a painful sense of emptiness at times, due to seeing it's all empty. In his own words, "I've clearly seen that nothing in the material world can actually bring me happiness, because anything that is happening now, is going to at some point, change or disappear, and that the only actual importance or meaning to any of it, is what I assign to it, and at times, this has me struggling to feel motivated to do anything to further myself...why bother?" I've tried to explain that that pain arises of his identification with his thoughts/ideas/material knowledge, that says it's important for life to have intrinsic meaning, purpose, etc, and also his identification with being a doer (the false idea that it is him who is responsible for making motivation to action happen), that in truly grasping that those ideas too are empty and devoid of Truth, just part and parcel of the story, that sense of 'wrongness' itself will disappear. anything you'd add...other than all he needs is to fully SR? A long time ago, I had a sudden and devastating experience of what I call the void. All I wanted to do was run, but there was nowhere to run to. The sense of hopelessness was total, though brief. In contrast, at a later time, there was a realization of the same thing that was earlier experienced, but instead of being terrifying, it was strangely freeing. As you suggest, the difference was in who or what was relating to the implications of that insight. Yes, absolutely, the difference once there's no longer an idea in play that says I'm a something that stands separate from any of it, once 'one movement' is clearly seen, really is the difference between a person who feels he is lost and floundering vs. freedom. It sounds for this kid as though there was one terrifying moment of seeing the emptiness, and then a sort of making peace with it, intellectually, but now and again a sense of peace and freedom related to that seeing does creep in, but a lot of the time, a sense of struggle as he tries to figure out why he should care about anything enough to engage. And indeed, all those shoulds and shouldn'ts that have one pushing himself to fulfill erroneous ideas about how life should be, DO fall away as they get seen through, but that doesn't mean all personal values do, or that they need to be ignored or denied. I think he's struggling with seeing the emptiness of all ideas, which of course includes all personal values, without poo-pooing/eschewing the continued arising of personal values. Eschewing personal values post seeing them all to be empty, as I see it, means that one is to some degree, intellectualizing the emptiness. After all, Seeing the emptiness of all doesn't mean the end of engagement with personal likes, dislikes, values, it just means no longer being lost to them. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jul 20, 2018 19:53:47 GMT
A long time ago, I had a sudden and devastating experience of what I call the void. All I wanted to do was run, but there was nowhere to run to. The sense of hopelessness was total, though brief. In contrast, at a later time, there was a realization of the same thing that was earlier experienced, but instead of being terrifying, it was strangely freeing. As you suggest, the difference was in who or what was relating to the implications of that insight. Yes, absolutely, the difference once there's no longer an idea in play that says I'm a something that stands separate from any of it, once 'one movement' is clearly seen, really is the difference between a person who feels he is lost and floundering vs. freedom. It sounds for this kid as though there was one terrifying moment of seeing the emptiness, and then a sort of making peace with it, intellectually, but now and again a sense of peace and freedom related to that seeing does creep in, but a lot of the time, a sense of struggle as he tries to figure out why he should care about anything enough to engage. And indeed, all those shoulds and shouldn'ts that have one pushing himself to fulfill erroneous ideas about how life should be, DO fall away as they get seen through, but that doesn't mean all personal values do, or that they need to be ignored or denied. I think he's struggling with seeing the emptiness of all ideas, which of course includes all personal values, without poo-pooing/eschewing the continued arising of personal values. Eschewing personal values post seeing them all to be empty, as I see it, means that one is to some degree, intellectualizing the emptiness. After all, Seeing the emptiness of all doesn't mean the end of engagement with personal likes, dislikes, values, it just means no longer being lost to them. The individual person truly is ungrounded quite naturally as an illusion, and compensates with a complex story valued self image and purpose. What's being seen through is the story but not the person who needs it. I suppose if I were dealing with him, that latter insight would be my focus. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 23, 2018 17:25:09 GMT
You know a lot of stuff. The error in this question (spiritual teachers and philosophers not exempt) is that they think that knowing should be a final, immutable possession. It is not. What I am indicating with this thread is anything but "knowing should be a final, immutable possession." Rather, it's an invitation to see that there is no final, immutable, 'possessible' knowing pertaining to anything that is happening in experience. No. You're reading that in. "What is known" will do just fine. No need to even mention an "I" if it's problematic for you. It's only misleading if you're reading too deeply into it. If anything, the admittance that nothing of substance is actually known for certain, limits influence in the way I think you mean....competition in terms of spiritual knowledge, if it's actually in play, would mean the folks involved are conceptualizing Truth. I'm talking here about seeing through all concepts... all ideas about existence, not heading deeper into them...not seeing some as empty but then hanging tightly onto others. I take it you think I'm out to compete for the most spiritually evolved award of something like that? If so, all I can say is, I have no such interest. |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Jul 24, 2018 16:12:30 GMT
1. What I am indicating with this thread is anything but "knowing should be a final, immutable possession." Rather, it's an invitation to see that there is no final, immutable, 'possessible' knowing pertaining to anything that is happening in experience. 2. No. You're reading that in. "What is known" will do just fine. No need to even mention an "I" if it's problematic for you. 3. It's only misleading if you're reading too deeply into it. If anything, the admittance that nothing of substance is actually known for certain, limits influence in the way I think you mean....competition in terms of spiritual knowledge, if it's actually in play, would mean the folks involved are conceptualizing Truth. I'm talking here about seeing through all concepts... all ideas about existence, not heading deeper into them...not seeing some as empty but then hanging tightly onto others. I take it you think I'm out to compete for the most spiritually evolved award of something like that? If so, all I can say is, I have no such interest. 1. That there is no immutable knowing doesn't mean you don't know anything. You know that water boils to 100 degrees Celsius. You know your children. If you take it that way, immutably knowing anything becomes a moot question. Yes, agree. I would say all knowings are immutable by virtue of them being 'knowings' (simply, what is known, in any given moment, is unquestioned). However, knowings change from moment to moment. So when writing this, amongst other things, it is known that pressing the keys will cause letters to appear on screen. Life would be a massive pain in the as.s if we had to continually question stuff on a moment by moment basis. And even when there IS questioning, there is still something known in that moment, i.e it is known that 'I'm not sure about this' or something like that. There are times when I might know what seems to be a kind of 'eternal knowing' or 'abiding knowing' or 'special immutable knowing', and this is pleasant, but it only seems like that in that moment.....in a different moment, the knowings have changed. Life is too wild for folks to have some kind of special abiding knowing that stays with them in every moment. It is only with hindsight that folks can say...'oh that knowing has always been with me'....yet at the time, that knowing wasn't there. I like the novelty of what you said, hence my response. |
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Post by Figgles on Jul 26, 2018 22:23:29 GMT
That there is no immutable knowing doesn't mean you don't know anything. Agreed. But it does mean that all of those knowings are relative, empty, absent the substance of absolute certainty. That water makes me wet is part and parcel of the story. Relative knowledge. What would 'reading too much into it' look like? If you're worried that folks are gonna see all conceptual knowledge as inherently empty and devoid of Truth and then go on to somehow fail to engage with the relative knowledge that water is wet or jumping off a cliff isn't likely a good idea, you haven't been listening close enough when teachers talk about 'not knowing.' I've never suggested one should or needs to stop engaging with concepts. Seeing conceptual knowledge as empty does not mean we actually lose all ability to conceptualize. |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 3, 2018 3:03:48 GMT
Agreed. But it does mean that all of those knowings are relative, empty, absent the substance of absolute certainty. That water makes me wet is part and parcel of the story. Relative knowledge. What would 'reading too much into it' look like? If you're worried that folks are gonna see all conceptual knowledge as inherently empty and devoid of Truth and then go on to somehow fail to engage with the relative knowledge that water is wet or jumping off a cliff isn't likely a good idea, you haven't been listening close enough when teachers talk about 'not knowing.' I've never suggested one should or needs to stop engaging with concepts. Seeing conceptual knowledge as empty does not mean we actually lose all ability to conceptualize. So, what is absolute knowledge? The non-conceputal knowing/realization that I am (existence is).....there is no separation...all that arises in appearance, arises within that which I am. It's not 'knowledge' in the traditional sense at all, not a taking on of information 'about' anything, but rather, a seeing that changes the way life is seen, the way life is engaged with, the way of Being. Whereas conceptual knowledge burdens and adds baggage, this non-coneptual knowing/ realization, lightens the load, 'subtracts' fixed, pat, material knowledge. |
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Post by Figgles on Sept 3, 2018 15:53:27 GMT
The non-conceputal knowing/realization that I am (existence is).....there is no separation...all that arises in appearance, arises within that which I am. It's not 'knowledge' in the traditional sense at all, not a taking on of information 'about' anything, but rather, a seeing that changes the way life is seen, the way life is engaged with, the way of Being. Whereas conceptual knowledge burdens and adds baggage, this non-coneptual knowing/ realization, lightens the load, 'subtracts' fixed, pat, material knowledge. All of that is relative to an entity's "being". It's a concept. It's not. I'm not talking about a concept at all. Indeed though, it does sound like one as it's gets talked about. & Other than just clamming up and saying nothing, there's nothing I can do about that. Words can never accurately capture "Truth." That which I'm referencing as Truth isn't an idea about reality, rather, it's a reference to 'what is'...what is known, what can be known, absent any question/doubt. The seeing of Truth actually happens in the absence of any and all ideation 'about' reality. When this Truth is apprehended, it's obvious, beyond question, beyond ideas/concepts. |
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