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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 6:27:48 GMT
I pulled the following conversation between Reefs and Justlikeyou from ST, as I see JLY making an important point with regards to suffering. Because Reefs has indicated he is quite into AH, I am quite surprised to see that he doubts that acceptance of emotional pain has a similar result to acceptance of physical pain. It is after all the judgement of and resistance to, momentary arisings of feelings of sorrow, irritation and fear, that escalates them into a depth that can be called 'suffering.' (Great Tolle quotes JLY added at the bottom) As long as we do anything from our conscious level, could it be acceptance, could it be rejecting, it's still a problem. If One is accepting the arising situation as it is, it's a mind game and soon he would meet up with the same situation. Creator doesn't need to do accepting to throw away something, he can simply recreate the situation where he doesn't need to struggle. |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 17, 2018 18:57:33 GMT
I pulled the following conversation between Reefs and Justlikeyou from ST, as I see JLY making an important point with regards to suffering. Because Reefs has indicated he is quite into AH, I am quite surprised to see that he doubts that acceptance of emotional pain has a similar result to acceptance of physical pain. It is after all the judgement of and resistance to, momentary arisings of feelings of sorrow, irritation and fear, that escalates them into a depth that can be called 'suffering.' (Great Tolle quotes JLY added at the bottom) As long as we do anything from our conscious level, could it be acceptance, could it be rejecting, it's still a problem. If One is accepting the arising situation as it is, it's a mind game and soon he would meet up with the same situation. Creator doesn't need to do accepting to throw away something, he can simply recreate the situation where he doesn't need to struggle. I full out agree, unless one is seeing from a particular vantage point, 'acceptance' of anything is going to be nothing more than a contrived exercise that is ultimately futile. However, if one is sincerely interested, he can direct his focus in a way that has him seeing what he needs to see, to end the resistance to the particular ideas and feelings currently in play. The freedom to direct focus in that way, is directly related to the sincerity and interest involved. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 21:58:50 GMT
As long as we do anything from our conscious level, could it be acceptance, could it be rejecting, it's still a problem. If One is accepting the arising situation as it is, it's a mind game and soon he would meet up with the same situation. Creator doesn't need to do accepting to throw away something, he can simply recreate the situation where he doesn't need to struggle. I full out agree, unless one is seeing from a particular vantage point, 'acceptance' of anything is going to be nothing more than a contrived exercise that is ultimately futile. However, if one is sincerely interested, he can direct his focus in a way that has him seeing what he needs to see, to end the resistance to the particular ideas and feelings currently in play. The freedom to direct focus in that way, is directly related to the sincerity and interest involved. Direct the focus is another illusion, finding out an answer is another illusion, resisting is illusion, accepting is illusion, decided to do something is an illusion, decided to not to do is also illusion, no matter how subtle our act could it be, it's still an illusion!If you feel like you understood what I said, then you are forming an another illusion. |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 17, 2018 22:18:12 GMT
I full out agree, unless one is seeing from a particular vantage point, 'acceptance' of anything is going to be nothing more than a contrived exercise that is ultimately futile. However, if one is sincerely interested, he can direct his focus in a way that has him seeing what he needs to see, to end the resistance to the particular ideas and feelings currently in play. The freedom to direct focus in that way, is directly related to the sincerity and interest involved. Direct the focus is another illusion, finding out an answer is another illusion, resisting is illusion, accepting is illusion, decided to do something is an illusion, decided to not to do is also illusion, no matter how subtle our act could it be, it's still an illusion!If you feel like you understood what I said, then you are forming an another illusion. Yes. Anytime there is the experience of a doer present, even if it is to simply direct focus, an ultimately illusive 'intermediary' is being imagined....but that is not going to be clearly seen unless one is fully Self realized....and it really need not be a problem. Until then, the imagined doer who directs focus for the purpose of accepting or 'relaxing into' an arising experience, is all just part and parcel of the greater unfolding. So long as there is an interest to invoke an intermediary who directs focus and instigates stuff, that's just how it's gonna be. When you tell someone who is not yet Self realized that they are not actually a doer, and that as a separate person they have no power to change the momentum of the movement in play, what they often hear is, "Just give up doing anything and stay in bed all day." |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 14:32:25 GMT
Direct the focus is another illusion, finding out an answer is another illusion, resisting is illusion, accepting is illusion, decided to do something is an illusion, decided to not to do is also illusion, no matter how subtle our act could it be, it's still an illusion!If you feel like you understood what I said, then you are forming an another illusion. ...and it really need not be a problem. Until then, the imagined doer who directs focus for the purpose of accepting or 'relaxing into' an arising experience, is all just part and parcel of the greater unfolding. So long as there is an interest to invoke an intermediary who directs focus and instigates stuff, that's just how it's gonna be. When you tell someone who is not yet Self realized that they are not actually a doer, and that as a separate person they have no power to change the momentum of the movement in play, what they often hear is, "Just give up doing anything and stay in bed all day." I am not clear here, Self-Realized can direct the focus and other people can't? Realizing that I am not doing it doesn't do any good in my opinion here, This is called ZD's illusion. |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 19, 2018 19:56:36 GMT
Yes. Anytime there is the experience of a doer present, even if it is to simply direct focus, an ultimately illusive 'intermediary' is being imagined....but that is not going to be clearly seen unless one is fully Self realized....and it really need not be a problem. Until then, the imagined doer who directs focus for the purpose of accepting or 'relaxing into' an arising experience, is all just part and parcel of the greater unfolding. So long as there is an interest to invoke an intermediary who directs focus and instigates stuff, that's just how it's gonna be. When you tell someone who is not yet Self realized that they are not actually a doer, and that as a separate person they have no power to change the momentum of the movement in play, what they often hear is, "Just give up doing anything and stay in bed all day." I am not clear here, Self-Realized can direct the focus and other people can't? Realizing that I am not doing it doesn't do any good in my opinion here, This is called ZD's illusion. The directing of focus is like any other action/doing/. When there's enough interest there, it happens. You don't control your interest or lack thereof....it's either there or it isn't. |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 19, 2018 20:06:09 GMT
I pulled the following conversation between Reefs and Justlikeyou from ST, as I see JLY making an important point with regards to suffering. Because Reefs has indicated he is quite into AH, I am quite surprised to see that he doubts that acceptance of emotional pain has a similar result to acceptance of physical pain. It is after all the judgement of and resistance to, momentary arisings of feelings of sorrow, irritation and fear, that escalates them into a depth that can be called 'suffering.' (Great Tolle quotes JLY added at the bottom) Reefs responded to the above with: The original arising of sadness/sense of loss is not really based upon a 'bogus' thought. If let's say a loved one has died, there actually is a loss (at the very least) of physical relationship that happened, and it's normal for a sense of sadness to arise. If that sadness has spiraled down into 'grief', I say that is precisely because there was resistance to that initial arising of sadness, and that's what intensified the feeling of sadness and anchored it into an ongoing state rather than just a feeling that would otherwise ebb and flow as thoughts about the loss ebbed and flowed. It is resistance to sorrow that sustains 'grief.' Thus, if one were able to allow/cease resistance to (relax into) the painful feelings of grief, it would indeed begin to lighten up. There would start to be 'space' between the thoughts of loss and thus space between the arisings of sorrow. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2018 10:52:28 GMT
I am not clear here, Self-Realized can direct the focus and other people can't? Realizing that I am not doing it doesn't do any good in my opinion here, This is called ZD's illusion. The directing of focus is like any other action/doing/. When there's enough interest there, it happens. You don't control your interest or lack thereof....it's either there or it isn't. Directing the focus is happening to achieve some result,right? |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 26, 2018 16:33:16 GMT
The directing of focus is like any other action/doing/. When there's enough interest there, it happens. You don't control your interest or lack thereof....it's either there or it isn't. Directing the focus is happening to achieve some result,right? Even if there is a thought there of, If I do this, that'll happen, the shift in focus only happens IF the interest is there. The movement/shift of focus IS interest driven, regardless. |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Feb 2, 2018 2:10:26 GMT
I find myself wondering if you would have posted this if it been a conversation between JLY and ZD or JLY and lolly. Is this post about suffering/acceptance, or is it about Reefs? I figured you'd chime in here with exactly what you did.  It's a subject I want to explore...what exactly it is that turns an arising feeling of sorrow, irritation or fear into a feeling that lingers and intensifies.....basically what lies behind and gives rise to 'suffering.' But yes, re: Reefs, I am indeed very surprised to see that he of all people replied as he did....that he sees relaxing into a physical pain as helping to lighten the intensity but not an emotional pain. However, and Fwiw, I feel I would have posted the conversation regardless of who was on each end, but of course, you are entitled to your own opinions about that.  More than my interest & surprise in what Reefs said, was my resonance with what JLY said, and the Tolle quotes he posted to augment his point. I finally got a chance to venture oustide of the Tano thread. There's a whole big world out here! What I've found is that the alleviation of physical pain is the elimination of the emotional component. Ideally, the physical pain becomes sensation only. An example that most may be familiar with is when a pain reliever is taken, the pain may be relieved immediately, long before the medicine has time to take effect. Sometimes even before the pill is taken. I'm often able to turn pain into mere sensation by simply relaxing into acceptance. Also, regarding your interest in what turns feeling into suffering, it's useful to realize that feeling is experienced as a movement only. IOW, we don't know feeling as a constant, but only as something that rises and falls. It's literally impossible for a feeling to get stuck in place, as that would imply a static state. When it seems to be stuck, what happens is that the mind re-creates the feeling over and over, at the same time lamenting that it can't get rid of it. Something that usually helps one in emotional pain is to distract them so that they temporarily stop creating it, at which point it will immediately move through the body and cease until mind remembers to get back to recreating it. |
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