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Post by Figgles on Jan 12, 2018 19:30:58 GMT
Andrew and I broached this subject a bit with some conversation about home schooling vs. public school, where he also spoke of the 'fringe lifestyle' that he and his family engaged...and I talked about the importance I saw in allowing kids to decide many of these things for themselves.
I've always had issues with the idea of 'indoctrinating' children into religious beliefs, specific philosophies about the world, life, and the like, and have always been very aware of my children's rights to their own views. With this in mind, I have strived to give mine the utmost freedom possible when it comes to making decisions that directly impact them.
That can be hard to do though if you are already living a fringe lifestyle when kids arrive on scene.....it's rare that a parent will put their on views and strong opinions on hold to foster freedom for independent thought in their child.
A great example; In the city I live in, there's been a big uproar over a nudist group, booking a gov't owned facility to hold a family nude swim night. The tickets were made available to the general public, which meant there would be people there, not of the core nudist group, therefore, folks who had in no way been screened.
Most folks (including myself) opposed to the nude swim, were opposed based upon the view that children were being placed in possible danger of abuse or even just being fodder for those with voyeuristic interest, and that in general, their rights were being subjugated before an age where they even realized they has such rights.
Despite some issues with hygiene that occur to me, as I see it, A nude swim night would be fine for those who are of age of consent, but absent that ability to consent, children should definitely not be involved.
The event ended up getting cancelled and now there's a community debate scheduled, with irrate views on both sides.
My opinion is that when folks become parents, they enter into an agreement to put the concerns and well being of their children before their own. Parents who insist on subjecting their children to their fringe lifestyles are often behaving very selfishly....their children are essentially being indoctrinated to believe what they believe.
The most important thing to nurture in a child as I see it, beyond love (and ensuring safety of course) is autonomy.....the freedom to decide for themselves how they see the world....what their values are.
It serves no one to have their thinking done for them. Children should be given the greatest degree of autonomy possible, without putting them in overt danger.
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Silver
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Post by Silver on Jan 20, 2018 13:05:29 GMT
Yes, young ones should have a voice while at the same time, be taught (mostly by example) how to carry on a reasonable conversation - a certain amount of etiquette, etc. We can't teach them everything, so we need to give them enough information/education to whet their appetite for doing their own research when they desire - and to try to instill a desire to always want more information about their chosen interests.
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Silver
Junior Member
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Post by Silver on Jan 20, 2018 13:11:48 GMT
I just read an interesting anecdote from another forum - will provide the link for another related article. There was once a small boy who banged a drum all day and loved every moment of it. He would not be quiet, no matter what anyone else said or did. Various people who called themselves Sufis, and other well-wishers, were called in by neighbors and asked to do something about the child. The first so-called Sufi told the boy that he would, if he continued to make so much noise, perforate his eardrums; this reasoning was too advanced for the child, who was neither a scientist nor a scholar. The second told him that drum beating was a sacred activity and should be carried out only on special occasions. The third offered the neighbors plugs for their ears; the fourth gave the boy a book; the fifth gave the neighbors books that described a method of controlling anger through biofeedback; the sixth gave the boy meditation exercises to make him placid and explained that all reality was imagination. Like all placebos, each of these remedies worked for a short while, but none worked for very long. Eventually, a real Sufi came along. He looked at the situation, handed the boy a hammer and chisel, and said, "I wonder what is INSIDE the drum?" I thought it fit well enough into this thread - otherwise I would've posted in Buddhism Bits II www.katinkahesselink.net/sufi/sufi-jok.html
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Post by Figgles on Jan 28, 2018 18:09:58 GMT
I just read an interesting anecdote from another forum - will provide the link for another related article. There was once a small boy who banged a drum all day and loved every moment of it. He would not be quiet, no matter what anyone else said or did. Various people who called themselves Sufis, and other well-wishers, were called in by neighbors and asked to do something about the child. The first so-called Sufi told the boy that he would, if he continued to make so much noise, perforate his eardrums; this reasoning was too advanced for the child, who was neither a scientist nor a scholar. The second told him that drum beating was a sacred activity and should be carried out only on special occasions. The third offered the neighbors plugs for their ears; the fourth gave the boy a book; the fifth gave the neighbors books that described a method of controlling anger through biofeedback; the sixth gave the boy meditation exercises to make him placid and explained that all reality was imagination. Like all placebos, each of these remedies worked for a short while, but none worked for very long. Eventually, a real Sufi came along. He looked at the situation, handed the boy a hammer and chisel, and said, "I wonder what is INSIDE the drum?" I thought it fit well enough into this thread - otherwise I would've posted in Buddhism Bits II www.katinkahesselink.net/sufi/sufi-jok.htmlLove it! Fits just fine, indeed. (sorry for the late response, just saw it )
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Post by Figgles on Jan 28, 2018 18:20:26 GMT
Yes, young ones should have a voice while at the same time, be taught ( mostly by example) how to carry on a reasonable conversation - a certain amount of etiquette, etc. We can't teach them everything, so we need to give them enough information/education to whet their appetite for doing their own research when they desire - and to try to instill a desire to always want more information about their chosen interests. Oh yes, imo, that whole 'by example' bit is of huge importance.....it's so easy to get caught up in 'telling' kids (other adults too) what we want from them, all the while behaving in a manner that demonstrates anything but that which we are saying we value. In short...hehe....don't be a hypocrite! I think if I had to sum up the main theme that I parented with, that would be it. Don't be a hypocrite. Walk the talk. The odd time now that there's a disparity between what we say and what we do, the kids point it out immediately. ON the flip side, they very much value walking their own talk.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 9, 2018 2:12:32 GMT
The worst reason to homeschool: Fear A really good article below on the difference between choosing an alternative schooling option due to fear vs. excitement/eagerness. Anytime we make parental choices that are fear based, we serve ourselves and our limited mind-set, not our children. simplehomeschool.net/the-worst-reason-to-homeschool/
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Post by Figgles on Mar 31, 2018 19:42:37 GMT
The worst reason to homeschool: Fear A really good article below on the difference between choosing an alternative schooling option due to fear vs. excitement/eagerness. Anytime we make parental choices that are fear based, we serve ourselves and our limited mind-set, not our children. simplehomeschool.net/the-worst-reason-to-homeschool/I had an interesting conversation with my daughter about homeschooling. As I've said, from the time my kids entered the school system, I made it clear that home schooling was always an option. Despite at times being less than enthusiastic about attending school, they've consistently chosen to attend public school vs. home schooling for the fact that they highly value the social interactions with their peers. That said, my daughter has also become very aware that she's also gained first hand experience in socializing with adults...some who are very respectful and some who are not. She explained how through engaging with those adults who might try to paint her into a box, or regard her as a cog in a giant wheel, she's learned that she can stand up and speak her truth...she's learned first hand that no one, even those who are older than her or in a position of relative authority, have the right to force her to do something that feels intrinsically wrong or off to her. I see home schooling parents often paying lots of lip service to these ideas, but unless a child actually experiences being in a position where she feels called to speak up against authority, it's all just empty words. Home schooling out of fear is akin to keeping a cat in a box while it's a kitten for fear that it will harm itself. Sure, by confining it to a box, you are going to ensure that it does not escape outside, does not fall off tables, does not get tangled in the curtains, but think of all the potential opportunity for fun and adventure that is also being missed out on...not to mention the inherent lessons involved in such activities. How does one ever learn that he does not require perfect conditions unless he at some point experiences imperfect conditions and see that he can still thrive and enjoy life? The majority of kids whom I see being home schooled have parents behind that decision, who are keeping their children home out of judgement and deep fear...in an effort to shield and protect them from what they believe to be a flawed and abusive system. In not allowing these children to experience public school and then decide for themselves what is best, these parents are actually perpetrating the very kind of abuse upon the child that they are supposedly intent upon avoiding. Children whose parents make these important kinds of choices for them are depriving their kids of the sense of autonomy and ability to think and choose for themselves. Interestingly enough, that's pretty much on par with what they accuse the school system of doing. I'd suggest to any parent considering home schooling for their child to first ask their child what he/she wants (of course, a child must first be able to experience public schooling for a time in order to make that choice) and if they are still not clear, make a list of pros and cons. If one sees a parent's role as preparing their child to function as a well-balanced adult, who is confident and fully up for the adventure called Life, I can't imagine why he/she would want to limit the scope of experience available to the child at an age where variety is so important.
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Post by Figgles on Mar 31, 2018 21:32:58 GMT
Andrew and I broached this subject a bit with some conversation about home schooling vs. public school, where he also spoke of the 'fringe lifestyle' that he and his family engaged...and I talked about the importance I saw in allowing kids to decide many of these things for themselves. I've always had issues with the idea of 'indoctrinating' children into religious beliefs, specific philosophies about the world, life, and the like, and have always been very aware of my children's rights to their own views. With this in mind, I have strived to give mine the utmost freedom possible when it comes to making decisions that directly impact them. That can be hard to do though if you are already living a fringe lifestyle when kids arrive on scene.....it's rare that a parent will put their on views and strong opinions on hold to foster freedom for independent thought in their child. A great example; In the city I live in, there's been a big uproar over a nudist group, booking a gov't owned facility to hold a family nude swim night. The tickets were made available to the general public, which meant there would be people there, not of the core nudist group, therefore, folks who had in no way been screened. Most folks (including myself) opposed to the nude swim, were opposed based upon the view that children were being placed in possible danger of abuse or even just being fodder for those with voyeuristic interest, and that in general, their rights were being subjugated before an age where they even realized they has such rights. Despite some issues with hygiene that occur to me, as I see it, A nude swim night would be fine for those who are of age of consent, but absent that ability to consent, children should definitely not be involved.
The event ended up getting cancelled and now there's a community debate scheduled, with irrate views on both sides. My opinion is that when folks become parents, they enter into an agreement to put the concerns and well being of their children before their own. Parents who insist on subjecting their children to their fringe lifestyles are often behaving very selfishly....their children are essentially being indoctrinated to believe what they believe. The most important thing to nurture in a child as I see it, beyond love (and ensuring safety of course) is autonomy.....the freedom to decide for themselves how they see the world....what their values are. It serves no one to have their thinking done for them. Children should be given the greatest degree of autonomy possible, without putting them in overt danger. Re: this nude, family swim thing.....sounds as though, despite lots of protests, it eventually went through and they held it. Again, I found it interesting that many opposed, took issue with children being included due to the possibility of abuse. While I too see that as a potential issue, the related but largest issue for me is that kids are being indoctrinated into a fringe lifestyle chosen by parents, often not even really consulted as to their own opinions and feelings on the matter. Given the freedom, Children are more than capable of making many important life choices for themselves....from the time mine were very young, they already had clear ideas about how they wanted to live...what kinds of things they were drawn to...what repelled them, etc. Too many parents view children as property....'things' they own that are just hitching a ride along with the lifestyle they selfishly choose to subject the child to. Supposedly 'spiritual folk' can be some of the worst offenders here....specifically because they have such strong views and often views that go against the grain. They superimpose these views upon the child from such an early age that the child never really has a chance to weight the ideas for their resonance or lack thereof. Nothing is more refreshing to see than a young child who has diametrically opposing views on the world relative to their parents.
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