Andrew
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Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Dec 24, 2017 19:05:23 GMT
Sigh, you really are hard work to discuss things with. It is exactly as I expressed, I'm not going to just repeat myself. you don't have to repeat yourself. You give away more than enough when you talk about your overt focus upon a broken world that needs fixing. There is simply no way you could have truly realized that all is perfect AND continue with your current focus and your current interest in fixing a world you see to be broken.
You have no way of knowing that (and to be clear 'fixing a broken world' is your conceptualization not mine). Your own self-delusion is quite extra-ordinary. The problem is that you don't own your own judgments and resistances. I am clear about mine, I stand by them, you seem to be in straight denial of your own conflicts. What I said was that I see stuff going well, and stuff not going so well. That applies to 'my' society as well as those I am merely an onlooker to. All of my personal judgements though are trumped by a greater, more encompassing seeing though, and that's the 'filter' I spoke of earlier. [/b][/quote] No....I am not at all interested in standing in the vantage point you are standing in, to see from the same eyes of narrow judgement you are seeing from when you see these ills you are so insistent upon. I'm aware of the ideas circulating out there about the various ways in which this world is a broken one, and all the polly-anna, pie in the sky, naive ideas about how to fix it. The world is not broken. Nothing needs to be fixed. What I am is not a fixer of stuff anyway. I cannot unsee any of that. [/quote] Again 'broken world that needs fixing' is your characterization not mine. I see stuff that 'isn't going well' and stuff that 'is going well', but like Jonathon Pie says...a society which produces homeless people is a dysfunctional society. I see that as a reasonable and objective assessment. |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Dec 24, 2017 19:10:39 GMT
How do you decide whether someone can 'provide for themselves'? Seemingly physically and mentally able people may have something 'going on' which means they cannot 'provide for themselves'. On what basis do you judge yourself as being able to know whether they can or can't? I'm not saying we can always know for certain, but it's equally as detrimental to rob someone of an instance where they can experience themselves to be autonomous and independent as it is to pass by someone who is truly in need. The guidelines offered in the article I posted (by Christian dude) address both sides of the coin. What seems like an act of kindness/charity from your end, may actually be an insult, validation of powerlessness to the one you think you are helping. Acts of charity always benefit the one giving more than the one receiving....important to see that. A friend of mine had lunch in a restaurant by himself a few weeks ago and struck up a conversation with a couple ad a table nearby. They said goodbye and then left and when he went to pay his bill, found they had picked up the tab for him. He was left wondering if his shabby work clothes had them thinking he needed the financial help....or if they simply liked his company. He decided to go with the idea that they liked his company as the alternative made him feel like like sh*t, and the idea of them liking him, made him happy. If you offer someone the opportunity to experience themselves as 'autonomous and independent', but they cannot accept that opportunity, then all you are doing is imposing your beliefs on them that 'autonomy and independence' is desirable. It is entirely possible that some folks are born to be dependents....that's just their role in life. They cannot function in such way that will put a roof over their head. However, they may well be contributing in unseen ways (in fact, this isn't a 'may be', the fact is that they are). Maybe we shouldn't be judging which people should be autonomous and which should be dependent and just accept their worth as it is. Maybe we shouldn't be trying to change people based on our assessments of what they can, and should be doing. Instead.....just give. (we also can't say if acts of service benefit the one giving more than the one receiving). You come across as interestingly right wing. Would you say you are right wing? |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 19:25:26 GMT
You have no way of knowing that (and to be clear 'fixing a broken world' is your conceptualization not mine). How is 'fixing a broken world' different from your wanting to help fix a world-wide sick society? Indeed I cannot know for certain, but as I see it, those who are awake and are therefore, not swept up in experiential content, are predominantly seeing the fundamental perfection of all of it, and thus, I don't see how an interest in 'fixing the ills of society' to the degree you are demonstrating, could ever gain a foothold. AS I see it, it would be very rare for a someone who is awake to go into politics, or to get caught up really in a serious way in any 'world cause,' because there is plain and simply an absence of identification with experience and to get so embroiled in perceived problems that we take on a plan to fix them, requires identification with experience. The absence of identification does not mean that we no longer care, just that the bigger picture always reigns supreme and thus, the very interest to fix or remedy something that fundamentally is understood to be just fine, just does not arise. [/b][/quote] ?? I clearly see judgements where they exist....the resistance? You'll have to elaborate upon. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 19:28:22 GMT
I'm not saying we can always know for certain, but it's equally as detrimental to rob someone of an instance where they can experience themselves to be autonomous and independent as it is to pass by someone who is truly in need. The guidelines offered in the article I posted (by Christian dude) address both sides of the coin. What seems like an act of kindness/charity from your end, may actually be an insult, validation of powerlessness to the one you think you are helping. Acts of charity always benefit the one giving more than the one receiving....important to see that. A friend of mine had lunch in a restaurant by himself a few weeks ago and struck up a conversation with a couple ad a table nearby. They said goodbye and then left and when he went to pay his bill, found they had picked up the tab for him. He was left wondering if his shabby work clothes had them thinking he needed the financial help....or if they simply liked his company. He decided to go with the idea that they liked his company as the alternative made him feel like like sh*t, and the idea of them liking him, made him happy. If you offer someone the opportunity to experience themselves as 'autonomous and independent', but they cannot accept that opportunity, then all you are doing is imposing your beliefs on them that 'autonomy and independence' is desirable. It is entirely possible that some folks are born to be dependents....that's just their role in life. They cannot function in such way that will put a roof over their head. However, they may well be contributing in unseen ways (in fact, this isn't a 'may be', the fact is that they are). Maybe we shouldn't be judging which people should be autonomous and which should be dependent and just accept their worth as it is. Maybe we shouldn't be trying to change people based on our assessments of what they can, and should be doing. Instead.....just give. (we also can't say if acts of service benefit the one giving more than the one receiving). You come across as interestingly right wing. Would you say you are right wing?not sure...in general, I don't paint myself into those kinds of boxes/classifications. |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Dec 24, 2017 19:31:31 GMT
You have no way of knowing that (and to be clear 'fixing a broken world' is your conceptualization not mine). How is 'fixing a broken world' different from your wanting to help fix a world-wide sick society? Indeed I cannot know for certain, but as I see it, those who are awake and are therefore, not swept up in experiential content, are predominantly seeing the fundamental perfection of all of it, and thus, I don't see how an interest in 'fixing the ills of society' to the degree you are demonstrating, could ever gain a foothold. AS I see it, it would be very rare for a someone who is awake to go into politics, or to get caught up really in a serious way in any 'world cause,' because there is plain and simply an absence of identification with experience and to get so embroiled in perceived problems that we take on a plan to fix them, requires identification with experience. The absence of identification does not mean that we no longer care, just that the bigger picture always reigns supreme and thus, the very interest to fix or remedy something that fundamentally is understood to be just fine, just does not arise. [/b][/quote] ?? I clearly see judgements where they exist....the resistance? You'll have to elaborate upon. [/quote] For me it is a basic mechanical issue. A car mechanic will notice when a car is misaligned, and will seek to fix it. An engineer will notice when building a bridge if there is something 'off' with the construction. A doctor or energy practitioner will notice when there is a health imbalance, and will seek to fix it. That's how it is for me. It is a mechanical/balance issue that I notice and seek to address. In the bigger picture, perfection is the case, but I also won't ignore what objectively presents itself to me. By definition, there is judgement involved in correcting an imbalance, but it is a relative judgement, and also, I don't judge my judgements. I accept my role for what it is in the moment. |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Dec 24, 2017 19:40:01 GMT
If you offer someone the opportunity to experience themselves as 'autonomous and independent', but they cannot accept that opportunity, then all you are doing is imposing your beliefs on them that 'autonomy and independence' is desirable. It is entirely possible that some folks are born to be dependents....that's just their role in life. They cannot function in such way that will put a roof over their head. However, they may well be contributing in unseen ways (in fact, this isn't a 'may be', the fact is that they are). Maybe we shouldn't be judging which people should be autonomous and which should be dependent and just accept their worth as it is. Maybe we shouldn't be trying to change people based on our assessments of what they can, and should be doing. Instead.....just give. (we also can't say if acts of service benefit the one giving more than the one receiving). You come across as interestingly right wing. Would you say you are right wing?not sure...in general, I don't paint myself into those kinds of boxes/classifications. hmmm yes I imagine it isn't something you have often considered. You come across as fairly strong on the particular theme of autonomy, independence and capability. The problem is that those who are usually strongest on these ideas, are also often those that haven't found themselves in a position of 'this is not possible for me'. The other big problem is that we are still very in the dark in the West when it comes to understanding human functioning. We don't yet consider such things as sensitivities, energy, soul purpose. Some people are here to just do nothing much at all...and there's really nothing they can do about that. They may seem physically and mentally capable enough, but that doesn't mean they are. And in their own way, these people are teaching our society about the nature of 'worth'. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 19:41:00 GMT
For me it is a basic mechanical issue. A car mechanic will notice when a car is misaligned, and will seek to fix it. An engineer will notice when building a bridge if there is something 'off' with the construction. A doctor or energy practitioner will notice when there is a health imbalance, and will seek to fix it. That's how it is for me. It is a mechanical/balance issue that I notice and seek to address. In the bigger picture, perfection is the case, but I also won't ignore what objectively presents itself to me. By definition, there is judgement involved in correcting an imbalance, but it is a relative judgement, and also, I don't judge my judgements. I accept my role for what it is in the moment. I'll put it this way: One who is awake, is not going to have an interest in being a 'world problem' mechanic. I've been saying all along that if something presents, absent my going looking for problems, and there's an impetus to take action, it gets taken, but what you're talking about and what you've demonstrated with your overt focus upon conspiracy theories and such, goes much deeper than that, and as I see it, that quite clearly indicates identification with appearances. Absent identification with appearances, the interest to go there beyond surface deep, just doesn't happen. We can still care to some degree, but, The bigger picture always reigns. |
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Dec 24, 2017 19:44:08 GMT
For me it is a basic mechanical issue. A car mechanic will notice when a car is misaligned, and will seek to fix it. An engineer will notice when building a bridge if there is something 'off' with the construction. A doctor or energy practitioner will notice when there is a health imbalance, and will seek to fix it. That's how it is for me. It is a mechanical/balance issue that I notice and seek to address. In the bigger picture, perfection is the case, but I also won't ignore what objectively presents itself to me. By definition, there is judgement involved in correcting an imbalance, but it is a relative judgement, and also, I don't judge my judgements. I accept my role for what it is in the moment. I'll put it this way: One who is awake, is not going to have an interest in being a 'world problem' mechanic. I've been saying all along that if something presents, absent my going looking for problems, and there's an impetus to take action, it gets taken, but what you're talking about and what you've demonstrated with your overt focus upon conspiracy theories and such, goes much deeper than that, and as I see it, that quite clearly indicates identification with appearances. Absent identification with appearances, the interest to go there beyond surface deep, just doesn't happen. We can still care to some degree, but, The bigger picture always reigns. You just can't say that. I know a lot of very awake people who are energy mechanics (that's how I would describe it). Of course, they may not fit into your judgement of what it means to be awake, but then again, it's possible that they might well see you as delusional. Cut out the continual one up man ship please, it's really quite pathetic. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 19:48:36 GMT
hmmm yes I imagine it isn't something you have often considered. You come across as fairly strong on the particular theme of autonomy, independence and capability. The problem is that those who are usually strongest on these ideas, are also often those that haven't found themselves in a position of 'this is not possible for me'. The other big problem is that we are still very in the dark in the West when it comes to understanding human functioning. We don't yet consider such things as sensitivities, energy, soul purpose. Some people are here to just do nothing much at all...and there's really nothing they can do about that. They may seem physically and mentally capable enough, but that doesn't mean they are. And in their own way, these people are teaching our society about the nature of 'worth'. AS I said, in the past I worked with mentally handicapped adults of a wide range of capability and even those who were very handicapped, benefitted from being independent to the degree they were capable...for some, that might have been as small an endeavor as using a fork by themselves, but still. But really, beyond that point, I'd say I'm stronger on the idea of do-gooders looking deeply at themselves to see that they are often attempting to derive a sense of well-being, empowerment via supposedly helping another deemed to be less able, less fortunate. Supposedly Good intentions, cloaked in ego, kind of thing. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 19:51:21 GMT
I'll put it this way: One who is awake, is not going to have an interest in being a 'world problem' mechanic. I've been saying all along that if something presents, absent my going looking for problems, and there's an impetus to take action, it gets taken, but what you're talking about and what you've demonstrated with your overt focus upon conspiracy theories and such, goes much deeper than that, and as I see it, that quite clearly indicates identification with appearances. Absent identification with appearances, the interest to go there beyond surface deep, just doesn't happen. We can still care to some degree, but, The bigger picture always reigns. You just can't say that. I know a lot of very awake people who are energy mechanics (that's how I would describe it). Of course, they may not fit into your judgement of what it means to be awake, but then again, it's possible that they might well see you as delusional. Cut out the continual one up man ship please, it's really quite pathetic. I'm not trying to one up you. I'm simply telling it as I see it. Why is it so important that you fit into the 'awake' category anyway? If you are content, who cares what that I label you as asleep? |
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