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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 17:46:18 GMT
No, my basic premise is not that 'service can create bad outcomes.' It's that a blanket plan that I am going to BE of service is founded upon a misconception and thus, very often backfires. The IDEA that I am going to serve, often gets conflated with actually serving the highest good of all involved. The idea/plan to serve, is not the same as actually serving the highest good. I am not saying that if an urge arises to help someone or to contribute that it should be shut it down, just that a blanket idea about a broken world that requires fixing, indicates one who is knee deep in delusion. The word 'backfires' there is the 'bad outcome' judgement. To be fair, it could easily be argued that you are deluded for thinking that a society which manifests homelessness ISN'T an unhealthy society (based on what you said there I am assuming that you think your society isn't unhealthy). Obviously these are quite subjective judgments to make either way....so again, I would just say...if the urge to give is there, then just go with it without trying to figure it out. Is my interpretation correct there, that you think your society is a healthy functioning one? It's plain and simply not a black/white issue. Looking directly at the idea of 'society', I see some things going very well, and some stuff not going so well. It's the nature of physical reality though....contrast is inevitable. From a broader vantage point, seeing it with eyes that have no judge and jury behind it, seeing it all as dream stuff....not a hair is outta place. All is unfolding perfectly. I have trouble these days looking at the problematic stuff for any length of time, not because it's unpleasant, but because it requires a deliberate focus away from what I know to be True.... and the whole idea of applying 'shoulds' or 'should nots' to ideas regarding procreating vs. adopting and stuff like that, is just plain and simply, seen to be misconceived. & If you cannot see how it's misconceived, AT the very least, surely you can understand the sentiment that one who has birthed children, however it came to be, is just not in a position to judge others who want to do the same. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 18:00:02 GMT
In one his books, Author Stuart Wilde described a scenario where he'd just come out of a restaurant with a group of spiritually minded folks who had very set ideas about what it means to be kind, 'service to others' and such. A homeless man with a cup in his outstretched hand approached them, clearly looking for charity. Stuart describes how he reached into the cup, took a coin and heartily thanked the man for his generosity.
He says the man just stood there, with his mouth hanging open....and all the spiritually minded folks with him, were angered and aghast at what they deemed to be his cruelty. He explained to them how in that instance of turning the tables, he offered the homeless man a completely different glimpse of himself and in doing so, may have perhaps offered a glimmer of insight into just how deeply the homeless man had bought into his powerlessness and dependence upon others....and that in having even one person see him differently and behave accordingly, a new perspective was being offered.
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Dec 24, 2017 18:06:49 GMT
The word 'backfires' there is the 'bad outcome' judgement. To be fair, it could easily be argued that you are deluded for thinking that a society which manifests homelessness ISN'T an unhealthy society (based on what you said there I am assuming that you think your society isn't unhealthy). Obviously these are quite subjective judgments to make either way....so again, I would just say...if the urge to give is there, then just go with it without trying to figure it out. Is my interpretation correct there, that you think your society is a healthy functioning one? It's plain and simply not a black/white issue. Looking directly at the idea of 'society', I see some things going very well, and some stuff not going so well. It's the nature of physical reality though....contrast is inevitable. From a broader vantage point, seeing it with eyes that have no judge and jury behind it, seeing it all as dream stuff....not a hair is outta place. All is unfolding perfectly. I have trouble these days looking at the problematic stuff for any length of time, not because it's unpleasant, but because it requires a deliberate focus away from what I know to be True.... and the whole idea of applying 'shoulds' or 'should nots' to ideas regarding procreating vs. adopting and stuff like that, is just plain and simply, seen to be misconceived. & If you cannot see how it's misconceived, AT the very least, surely you can understand the sentiment that one who has birthed children, however it came to be, is just not in a position to judge others who want to do the same. I also know of the vantage point in which the 'perfection' of all can be seen, but equally I trust a more relative vantage point, in which I can see the energy of falsity that runs through society and creates social dysfunction and illness. However, while I agree that contrast is inevitable, for me contrast does not have to manifest as the polarity of a healthy society and sick society. I see this kind of polarized contrast as a very particular and quite unique form of contrast.... in universal terms, an aberration rather than the norm. So for me, addressing social dysfunction and illness is about correcting an imbalance. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Dec 24, 2017 18:14:43 GMT
In one his books, Author Stuart Wilde described a scenario where he'd just come out of a restaurant with a group of spiritually minded folks who had very set ideas about what it means to be kind, 'service to others' and such. A homeless man with a cup in his outstretched hand approached them, clearly looking for charity. Stuart describes how he reached into the cup, took a coin and heartily thanked the man for his generosity. He says the man just stood there, with his mouth hanging open....and all the spiritually minded folks with him, were angered and aghast at what they deemed to be his cruelty. He explained to them how in that instance of turning the tables, he offered the homeless man a completely different glimpse of himself and in doing so, may have perhaps offered a glimmer of insight into just how deeply the homeless man had bought into his powerlessness and dependence upon others....and that in having even one person see him differently and behave accordingly, a new perspective was being offered. That strikes me as kinda funny...Who does Stuart think he is lol. Next time I pass a homeless person who asks for money, I will reach in and take their money...it's for their own good! Do you consider it okay for very autistic folks to be dependent on others for their warmth at night? |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 18:18:27 GMT
I also know of the vantage point in which the 'perfection' of all can be seen, but equally I trust a more relative vantage point, in which I can see the energy of falsity that runs through society and creates social dysfunction and illness.So what you are therefore saying is: I have a conceptual grasp on the idea of perfection, but it's not actually the vantage point from which I experience. All I can say is, there is a point where 'perfection' is not just an idea...where it truly is the filter through which all experience is seen through. Thus, what you are deeming to be a social ill, is seen in an entirely different light that makes the judgement of 'wrongness', impossible. Once all is seen in that light, the idea of 'fixing the world,' goes too. "healthy/sick" are concepts based upon your personal values. Important to see that. Not everyone shares your values. And while you are so deeply focused upon just how wrong the contrast is currently manifesting, you actually further anchor yourself within an experience that will reflect those perceived ills, back to you. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 18:23:09 GMT
That strikes me as kinda funny...Who does Stuart think he is lol. Next time I pass a homeless person who asks for money, I will reach in and take their money...it's for their own good! I thought it was funny too.....but everything he said made sense. It's okay for anyone to be dependent so long as they cannot provide for themselves. I worked in rehabilitation services with mentally challenged adults years ago, and the focus was always upon having them do the most for themselves they possibly could. For some that meant bathing/washing hair with supervision, minimal assistance dressing, toileting etc, while for others it meant having an actual job where they earned money, doing their own clothes shopping, cooking their own meals. All of them derived something positive from being independent at the level they were capable of. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Dec 24, 2017 18:29:16 GMT
I also know of the vantage point in which the 'perfection' of all can be seen, but equally I trust a more relative vantage point, in which I can see the energy of falsity that runs through society and creates social dysfunction and illness.So what you are therefore saying is: I have a conceptual grasp on the idea of perfection, but it's not actually the vantage point from which I experience. All I can say is, there is a point where 'perfection' is not just an idea...where it truly is the filter through which all experience is seen through. Thus, what you are deeming to be a social ill, is seen in an entirely different light that makes the judgement of 'wrongness', impossible. Once all is seen in that light, the idea of 'fixing the world,' goes too. Sigh, you really are hard work to discuss things with. It is exactly as I expressed, I'm not going to just repeat myself."healthy/sick" are concepts based upon your personal values. Important to see that. Not everyone shares your values. And while you are so deeply focused upon just how wrong the contrast is currently manifesting, you actually further anchor yourself within an experience that will reflect those perceived ills, back to you. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Dec 24, 2017 18:33:05 GMT
That strikes me as kinda funny...Who does Stuart think he is lol. Next time I pass a homeless person who asks for money, I will reach in and take their money...it's for their own good! I thought it was funny too.....but everything he said made sense. Sort of. It's okay for anyone to be dependent so long as they cannot provide for themselves. I worked in rehabilitation services with mentally challenged adults years ago, and the focus was always upon having them do the most for themselves they possibly could. For some that meant bathing/washing hair with supervision, minimal assistance dressing, toileting etc, while for others it meant having an actual job where they earned money, doing their own clothes shopping, cooking their own meals. All of them derived something positive from being independent at the level they were capable of. How do you decide whether someone can 'provide for themselves'? Seemingly physically and mentally able people may have something 'going on' which means they cannot 'provide for themselves'. On what basis do you judge yourself as being able to know whether they can or can't? |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 18:56:01 GMT
Sigh, you really are hard work to discuss things with. It is exactly as I expressed, I'm not going to just repeat myself. you don't have to repeat yourself. You give away more than enough when you talk about your overt focus upon a broken world that needs fixing. There is simply no way you could have truly realized that all is perfect AND continue with your current focus and your current interest in fixing a world you see to be broken. What I said was that I see stuff going well, and stuff not going so well. That applies to 'my' society as well as those I am merely an onlooker to. All of my personal judgements though are trumped by a greater, more encompassing seeing though, and that's the 'filter' I spoke of earlier. [/b][/quote] No....I am not at all interested in standing in the vantage point you are standing in, to see from the same eyes of narrow judgement you are seeing from when you see these ills you are so insistent upon. I'm aware of the ideas circulating out there about the various ways in which this world is a broken one, and all the polly-anna, pie in the sky, naive ideas about how to fix it. The world is not broken. Nothing needs to be fixed. What I am is not a fixer of stuff anyway. I cannot unsee any of that. |
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Post by Figgles on Dec 24, 2017 19:03:23 GMT
How do you decide whether someone can 'provide for themselves'? Seemingly physically and mentally able people may have something 'going on' which means they cannot 'provide for themselves'. On what basis do you judge yourself as being able to know whether they can or can't? I'm not saying we can always know for certain, but it's equally as detrimental to rob someone of an instance where they can experience themselves to be autonomous and independent as it is to pass by someone who is truly in need. The guidelines offered in the article I posted (by Christian dude) address both sides of the coin. What seems like an act of kindness/charity from your end, may actually be an insult, validation of powerlessness to the one you think you are helping. Acts of charity always benefit the one giving more than the one receiving....important to see that. A friend of mine had lunch in a restaurant by himself a few weeks ago and struck up a conversation with a couple ad a table nearby. They said goodbye and then left and when he went to pay his bill, found they had picked up the tab for him. He was left wondering if his shabby work clothes had them thinking he needed the financial help....or if they simply liked his company. He decided to go with the idea that they liked his company as the alternative made him feel like like sh*t, and the idea of them liking him, made him happy. |
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