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Post by Figgles on Jul 1, 2023 14:16:16 GMT
You're hittin' the nail right on the head here Andrew. The subject of "interest" in all of this is significant to the degree that I think it deserves it's own thread. It's the key to everything...and yet, pretty much anyone who is interested in looking, can and will clearly see that interest cannot be contrived....is not something that can be chosen...it's either there, or it isn't. I agree with you...where there IS indeed a sincere interest in 'getting to the bare bones' of things, exploring and most importantly, deciphering/pin-pointing precisely what our interest are (and are not!) is essential to being clear. An honest assessment and acknowledgement of what interests are present and what interests are not, is the cornerstone of "Human Adulthood." And while human adulthood is not the same as SR/wakefulness, I don't see how there could be the shift in locus of seeing/clarity of vantage point that IS awakening/SR and there not also be full clarity as to mind content/interests. This is the convo where that whole "split-mind" dealy comes into play. One can only remain unaware of that 'split' in play as he on one hand tries to manage some kind of perceived habit/addiction, while simultaneously, giving in to the urges/intents towards that behavior he says he wants to quell, if he is truly lacking interest in looking at/seeing that! Addiction is something I've never had any 1st hand, direct experiential reference for, i think, because I've always been very clear about my true interests/wants/intents. But I've observed others as they say they are interested in one thing, and the next minute, they are engaging in the very behavior/action that is counter that...and in those cases it's always been quite clear that central to that dynamic, is a basic dishonesty..?...or is it an inability/failure to see what's going on in mind in terms of interest...intention...? I think so much of what goes on between these forums involves that failure/inabilty/dishonesty re: intents and interest. Folks sayin' they don't want pointed debate/challenge...don't want any shit-talking about others on forum....but then engage heartily in that very thing themselves....folks voting to shut down spiritual debate/dharma battles, but then tuning in in droves to observe such, so long as they re not called upon to engage... I for one am fascinated with that kind of duplicity of mind.....those who claim an interest in a particular direction and then behave completely counter to that....Pointing that duplicitous behavior out as happens is as I see it, yet another important facet inherent to talking about clarity.
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by Andrew on Jul 1, 2023 23:33:09 GMT
You're hittin' the nail right on the head here Andrew. The subject of "interest" in all of this is significant to the degree that I think it deserves it's own thread. It's the key to everything...and yet, pretty much anyone who is interested in looking, can and will clearly see that interest cannot be contrived....is not something that can be chosen...it's either there, or it isn't. I agree with you...where there IS indeed a sincere interest in 'getting to the bare bones' of things, exploring and most importantly, deciphering/pin-pointing precisely what our interest are (and are not!) is essential to being clear. An honest assessment and acknowledgement of what interests are present and what interests are not, is the cornerstone of "Human Adulthood." And while human adulthood is not the same as SR/wakefulness, I don't see how there could be the shift in locus of seeing/clarity of vantage point that IS awakening/SR and there not also be full clarity as to mind content/interests. This is the convo where that whole "split-mind" dealy comes into play. One can only remain unaware of that 'split' in play as he on one hand tries to manage some kind of perceived habit/addiction, while simultaneously, giving in to the urges/intents towards that behavior he says he wants to quell, if he is truly lacking interest in looking at/seeing that! Addiction is something I've never had any 1st hand, direct experiential reference for, i think, because I've always been very clear about my true interests/wants/intents. But I've observed others as they say they are interested in one thing, and the next minute, they are engaging in the very behavior/action that is counter that...and in those cases it's always been quite clear that central to that dynamic, is a basic dishonesty..?...or is it an inability/failure to see what's going on in mind in terms of interest...intention...? I think so much of what goes on between these forums involves that failure/inabilty/dishonesty re: intents and interest. Folks sayin' they don't want pointed debate/challenge...don't want any shit-talking about others on forum....but then engage heartily in that very thing themselves....folks voting to shut down spiritual debate/dharma battles, but then tuning in in droves to observe such, so long as they re not called upon to engage... I for one am fascinated with that kind of duplicity of mind.....those who claim an interest in a particular direction and then behave completely counter to that....Pointing that duplicitous behavior out as happens is as I see it, yet another important facet inherent to talking about clarity. yeah, getting clear about my interests is something I probably do every day, almost as a natural function at this point. It sort of keeps me 'on track', though it's not easy to say what 'track' that is...but just the feeling of being 'on track' is usually the point. And I subscribe to the idea that ultimately, all humans are interested in the same basic thing or things, though there are a myriad of ways that we follow those interests, and some of them seem almost the reverse of what is actually wanted (e.g 'looking for love in all the wrong places'). And I consider it possible that there are different 'standards' for the same thing...in a sense, our capacity for something can grow...that might be a capacity for Joy or Freedom or Love or Connection. In the very simplest sense though, I guess you might agree that what we are fundamentally interested in, is along the lines of a direct experience of 'what we are'.
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Post by Figgles on Jul 2, 2023 15:53:20 GMT
yeah, getting clear about my interests is something I probably do every day, almost as a natural function at this point. It sort of keeps me 'on track', though it's not easy to say what 'track' that is...but just the feeling of being 'on track' is usually the point. Cool. Love that. No doubt about it, the very interest in being aware of and clear about interests, hinges upon a very specific kind of clarity and equilibrium of sorts, re: being....That interest you describe there about abidingly 'being aware of and clear about' arising interests, indicates the presence of sincerity and earnestness towards clarity itself. And again, that intent towards clarity cannot be contrived. Seems to me there are lots of folks who pay lip service to being interested in such but who demonstrate otherwise almost on a moment to moment to basis. I like how you describe that bent towards clarity re: interests as "a natural function," 'cause that's precisely what it becomes when the desire to bullshit yourself, is no longer in play. So there we have it...once again....a true, sincere interest towards clarity about interest hinges upon an absence....an absence of the egoic fear that keeps a person mired in the mind-games. There is a confidence and courage inherent to "wanting" to look/see/acknowledge what's really going on in mind. Very few truly "want" that...but I do think this whole relative awakening that seems to be happening world-wide is evidence of more becoming truly interested in/wanting that, which is heartening. The way I see it, the more egoic fear is in play, the greater the degree that arising interest in BS-ing oneself, is in play. I'm not sure therefore, if the idea works so much for me that there are "fundamental, personal interests" in play, along the lines of "direct experience of what we are," that can co-abide alongside more surface arising personal interests in BS-ing oneself. I guess if we get into 'naturally arising' intents when ego is not running the show, vs. the tainted intents when it is, we can perhaps edge into a convo about "direct experience of what we are," being a fundamental drive/intent that is always there....but just at times, obscured? There is no doubt that much the same way a flower naturally gravitates towards turning towards the sun for nourishment/growth/health, there are also built-in to the experience of person/human, a fundamental gravitation/pull towards well-being of all kinds.
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Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Jul 3, 2023 15:57:57 GMT
yeah, getting clear about my interests is something I probably do every day, almost as a natural function at this point. It sort of keeps me 'on track', though it's not easy to say what 'track' that is...but just the feeling of being 'on track' is usually the point. Cool. Love that. No doubt about it, the very interest in being aware of and clear about interests, hinges upon a very specific kind of clarity and equilibrium of sorts, re: being....That interest you describe there about abidingly 'being aware of and clear about' arising interests, indicates the presence of sincerity and earnestness towards clarity itself. And again, that intent towards clarity cannot be contrived. Seems to me there are lots of folks who pay lip service to being interested in such but who demonstrate otherwise almost on a moment to moment to basis. I like how you describe that bent towards clarity re: interests as "a natural function," 'cause that's precisely what it becomes when the desire to bullshit yourself, is no longer in play. So there we have it...once again....a true, sincere interest towards clarity about interest hinges upon an absence....an absence of the egoic fear that keeps a person mired in the mind-games. There is a confidence and courage inherent to "wanting" to look/see/acknowledge what's really going on in mind. Very few truly "want" that...but I do think this whole relative awakening that seems to be happening world-wide is evidence of more becoming truly interested in/wanting that, which is heartening. The way I see it, the more egoic fear is in play, the greater the degree that arising interest in BS-ing oneself, is in play. I'm not sure therefore, if the idea works so much for me that there are "fundamental, personal interests" in play, along the lines of "direct experience of what we are," that can co-abide alongside more surface arising personal interests in BS-ing oneself. I guess if we get into 'naturally arising' intents when ego is not running the show, vs. the tainted intents when it is, we can perhaps edge into a convo about "direct experience of what we are," being a fundamental drive/intent that is always there....but just at times, obscured?
There is no doubt that much the same way a flower naturally gravitates towards turning towards the sun for nourishment/growth/health, there are also built-in to the experience of person/human, a fundamental gravitation/pull towards well-being of all kinds.
yes, that's very close to how I see it. I'll ramble a bit, I'm not sure exactly where my ramble is going to end up, let's see.... yeah, I think every human on the planet is seeking that 'wellbeing', in the billions of ways that people do that. We are compelled to seek it, even when it looks like we are making terrible hellish choices for ourselves (and others). The other day I had a really random day on twitter. I had made a comment on a doctor's thread about the vaccine. Honestly, it wasn't the most intelligent thing I've ever said, more of a throw away reply than anything else, and I didn't expect to be drawn in to defending it. I went to bed, got up the next morning, and there were about 40 notifications....almost all were arguing or insulting me. On a different day, I might have thought 'screw it' and just left it, but this day happened to be my last day house-sitting for a lovely cat in North Carolina. I really had nothing more I wanted to do that day, than sit on the sofa with the cat, and argue with these assholes lol. Arguing with them would actually enable me to sit with the cat. And so I really made these twitter people work for their dinner that day. I spent pretty much the whole day arguing with them. It was a mixture of fun, annoyance and appreciation of my time with the cat on our last day together. All the time, I was basically aware that this was my way, on this particular day, of gravitating towards well-being. Was it the 'ideal' way? No (surely arguing with the vaccine-cult on twitter is never the ideal way!!). But it was still the best way for me in that moment. Even the annoyance was sort of fun for me, whereas on another day, the annoyance would have been.....annoying. The other thing that occurs to me is that our standards for well-being can change. To give an example, in my 20s, I had a very contented year working in Spain, went to Australia at the end of the year, and then had experiences that were incredibly pure, joyful, and changed my internal definition of well-being and freedom. So then when I went back to work a couple of months later, it was a struggle for a little while, I had to sort of 'contain' my new definition, which I was able to do for a couple of years (it was a good couple of years), but eventually it demanded that it be explored and honoured. I think that's true for 'Love' and 'Joy' etc too....our capacities/standards change over time, and what can be experienced as a very acceptable standard at one point, can become an unacceptable standard at another point. There MAY be a limit, based on our physiology, then again, physiology can adapt and change. I guess I'm saying that although I believe we are compelled to seek 'well-being', even that isn't a 'static' sense.
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Post by ghostofmuttley on Jul 3, 2023 16:20:29 GMT
"Andrew: I think the most we can do is 'refine' our interest, explore our interests to get to the bare bones of it. Then again, we will only do that if we are interested in doing it"
Funny sync just saw this now, didn't pick up on it (consciously) over there.
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Post by Figgles on Jul 4, 2023 16:35:10 GMT
While I do agree with her categorization of ego as more of an 'in the moment' activity/impulse to prop-up, defend, maintain self-image, vs. an existent some-thing, what the poster seems to missing is that the very judgment that says there "should be/needs to be" a cessation of all caring towards personal self, is itself, an egoic impulse...an judgmental idea about 'ego.'
A moment where that egoic impulse towards personal self-image is clearly seen and there is awareness of that, is a moment where ego is not going to be problematic. Seeing and acknowledging that egoic arising when and where it arises, is more than enough. No need to 'try' to quell an interest that's well in play....all attempts to quell interest, are a fools errand. Seeing/acknowledging interest is more than enough to instill freedom from that interest in that moment.
That does not necessarily mean that the interest ceases to be. It might cease. it might not. Seeing/acknowledgement (awareness OF) is everything....all that's necessary. And again, interest in "being aware of/seeing/acknowledging" arising interest, is not in the hands of the person...it's either there or it 'aint.
The idea that we can be or even should be completely absent those momentary 'egoic' arisings towards supporting self-image needs to be looked into. Central to that idea is a judgmental person who is trying to get some-where she is currently quite sure, she is not....a person who is trying to 'attain' something she's missing.
In the light of awareness OF it, ego loses it's hold and becomes unproblematic. That does not mean it goes away completely. Ego per se is not the problem....lack of awareness OF ego, when and where it rears up, IS.
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Post by Figgles on Aug 31, 2023 6:40:18 GMT
Excellent points Zaz. Indeed, a sincere interest in what's arising within mind/body, for the sheer sake of just looking/seeing that, is something very different than an interest in changing what's happening so that the person can benefit/feel better.
The interest in changing what is, is very different than an interest in looking at/seeing what is.
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