|
|
Corono
Jan 12, 2022 19:31:45 GMT
Post by Figgles on Jan 12, 2022 19:31:45 GMT
Dude, your " fact checkers" have hopelessly distorted the actual facts in this instance. At first glance, I was willing to throw AFD under the bus as it didn't look good, but, dude. Details. The one mistake I could find by re-reading the AFD article and an english translation of the source is that the AFD article incorrectly used the word "professional" in this sentence: The RTN article does acknowledge that there is incomplete information about whether each incident involved the vaccine: ... and the AFD article doesn't make a direct causality link to the vax. More importantly, the numbers from RTN were as follows: (1) 25 of the deaths on the list were professional FIFA: yes the complete list includes athletes from multiple sports and non-pro's and RTN made that clear (note that FIFA also encompasses amateurs, but that's actually not even here nor there). Perhaps the secondary AFD was ambiguous about this in seguing to the details of the methodology underlying the 5x headline, but, ok .. that could be deliberate distortion, a stupid author, or, it could just be ambiguity. Dunno' sorry. (2) The public data on previous professional FIFA deaths was 5 per year. So, yes, 5x increase.Now, your deeeeeeeeboooonker's have successfully deeeebooonked this Bembridge guy some facebook rando, but the "fact check" is distorted, and doesn't deeeeeeboonk the RTN article (and actually says that, explicitly). Here is what I find to be distorting: (1)
(2) the argument about vax involvement with the injuries is a strawman as applied to RTN/AFD .. it doesn't even apply to her screenshot tweet from Jimmy Fakebook. She does weasel-in an "implies", but as I already pointed out, RTN explicitly covers that point in the source article cited by AFD, who also refrains even from mentioning the vaccine at all. The point of these pieces is simply that the 5x rate here is an eyebrow raiser that should invite curiosity and demand explanation. (3) She states points that both RTN and AFD include explicitly .. IOW, she's deeeeeebooonking simply by parroting the contents and straw-manning that to Jimmy Fakebook: Would you like me to do the research on who pays Sarah's bills? I'm sorry for including that 'fact check' article. My bad. I didn't even read it and I have little sense of it's quality. I only wanted to source the FIFA quote that said they don't see their athletes dying in greater numbers. But I should have used this better source instead: www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-sport-idUSL1N2T81NY. That's also a better general "fact check" article. Why? Because they asked the people who would know if their athletes were dying, the sports organizations themselves. Oh, you don't trust the organizations like FIFA? Did your read RTN's methods? It says they used FIFA data ("according to FIFA data..."), and then counted names on wikipedia. The latter is not good data source. Then they compared that to what? Other FIFA data, or other wikipedia counts? This is the way insane people debate. It's a waste of time. It's like tug-of-war on ice. We have to get more reliable data, not a story based on counting names on wikipedia or in news stories. Who has a more reliable, year over year, way of counting medical incidents? That would be sports organizations like FIFA, NFL, NBA, NCAA, hospitals, CDC. But you don't trust them, apparently. (The FIFA data study I linked shows 600+ deaths in 4 years in soccer.) If we don't agree on where to get data there is not much to debate. And yes, that is indeed what seems to be the largest point of contention. It seems many institutions beyond the MSM has been corrupted. |
|
Andrew
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 8,345
|
Corono
Jan 12, 2022 20:01:59 GMT
Post by Andrew on Jan 12, 2022 20:01:59 GMT
I'm sorry for including that 'fact check' article. My bad. I didn't even read it and I have little sense of it's quality. I only wanted to source the FIFA quote that said they don't see their athletes dying in greater numbers. But I should have used this better source instead: www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-sport-idUSL1N2T81NY. That's also a better general "fact check" article. Why? Because they asked the people who would know if their athletes were dying, the sports organizations themselves. Oh, you don't trust the organizations like FIFA? Did your read RTN's methods? It says they used FIFA data ("according to FIFA data..."), and then counted names on wikipedia. The latter is not good data source. Then they compared that to what? Other FIFA data, or other wikipedia counts? This is the way insane people debate. It's a waste of time. It's like tug-of-war on ice. We have to get more reliable data, not a story based on counting names on wikipedia or in news stories. Who has a more reliable, year over year, way of counting medical incidents? That would be sports organizations like FIFA, NFL, NBA, NCAA, hospitals, CDC. But you don't trust them, apparently. (The FIFA data study I linked shows 600+ deaths in 4 years in soccer.) If we don't agree on where to get data there is not much to debate. And yes, that is indeed what seems to be the largest point of contention. It seems many institutions beyond the MSM has been corrupted.
Absolutely. 100% This is a corporate oligarchy situation. Science is fully interwoven and embedded in the power dynamics....the political arena, media, corporations. |
|
|
|
Corono
Jan 12, 2022 20:29:20 GMT
Post by Figgles on Jan 12, 2022 20:29:20 GMT
And yes, that is indeed what seems to be the largest point of contention. It seems many institutions beyond the MSM has been corrupted.
Absolutely. 100% This is a corporate oligarchy situation. Science is fully interwoven and embedded in the power dynamics....the political arena, media, corporations. Yes!...perfectly put...in a nutshell. Those who say they see 'some' of the governmental tyranny but still continue to argue using MSM and corrupted institutions like CDC/WHO to make their points, have clearly failed to see that. |
|
|
|
Corono
Jan 13, 2022 9:15:56 GMT
Post by ghostofmuttley on Jan 13, 2022 9:15:56 GMT
Imagination is a double edged sword. Careful now, don't cut yerself  what about Gorsuck... who literally said the flu kills "hundreds of thousands of people a year" (when its actually 36k on average) turns out that was a product of someone's imagination.  (from here) Follow the lazer pointer down rabbit holes of layered lies designed to manipulate your emotions. Your side didn't do too good on WIBIGO this time 'round, eh? Better option during a time of information warfare is to maintain intense criticality and suspension of belief/disbelief, all the while cognizant of the underlying agendas. Sadly, this required time to let the dust settle, and the cat always moves onto the next dancing point by then. |
|
|
|
Corono
Jan 13, 2022 9:53:55 GMT
Post by ghostofmuttley on Jan 13, 2022 9:53:55 GMT
Dude, your " fact checkers" have hopelessly distorted the actual facts in this instance. At first glance, I was willing to throw AFD under the bus as it didn't look good, but, dude. Details. The one mistake I could find by re-reading the AFD article and an english translation of the source is that the AFD article incorrectly used the word "professional" in this sentence: The RTN article does acknowledge that there is incomplete information about whether each incident involved the vaccine: ... and the AFD article doesn't make a direct causality link to the vax. More importantly, the numbers from RTN were as follows: (1) 25 of the deaths on the list were professional FIFA: yes the complete list includes athletes from multiple sports and non-pro's and RTN made that clear (note that FIFA also encompasses amateurs, but that's actually not even here nor there). Perhaps the secondary AFD was ambiguous about this in seguing to the details of the methodology underlying the 5x headline, but, ok .. that could be deliberate distortion, a stupid author, or, it could just be ambiguity. Dunno' sorry. (2) The public data on previous professional FIFA deaths was 5 per year. So, yes, 5x increase.Now, your deeeeeeeeboooonker's have successfully deeeebooonked this Bembridge guy some facebook rando, but the "fact check" is distorted, and doesn't deeeeeeboonk the RTN article (and actually says that, explicitly). Here is what I find to be distorting: (1)
(2) the argument about vax involvement with the injuries is a strawman as applied to RTN/AFD .. it doesn't even apply to her screenshot tweet from Jimmy Fakebook. She does weasel-in an "implies", but as I already pointed out, RTN explicitly covers that point in the source article cited by AFD, who also refrains even from mentioning the vaccine at all. The point of these pieces is simply that the 5x rate here is an eyebrow raiser that should invite curiosity and demand explanation. (3) She states points that both RTN and AFD include explicitly .. IOW, she's deeeeeebooonking simply by parroting the contents and straw-manning that to Jimmy Fakebook: Would you like me to do the research on who pays Sarah's bills? I'm sorry for including that 'fact check' article. My bad. I didn't even read it and I have little sense of it's quality. I only wanted to source the FIFA quote that said they don't see their athletes dying in greater numbers. But I should have used this better source instead: www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-sport-idUSL1N2T81NY. That's also a better general "fact check" article. Why? Because they asked the people who would know if their athletes were dying, the sports organizations themselves. Oh, you don't trust the organizations like FIFA? Did your read RTN's methods? It says they used FIFA data ("according to FIFA data..."), and then counted names on wikipedia. The latter is not good data source. Then they compared that to what? Other FIFA data, or other wikipedia counts? This is the way insane people debate. It's a waste of time. It's like tug-of-war on ice. We have to get more reliable data, not a story based on counting names on wikipedia or in news stories. Who has a more reliable, year over year, way of counting medical incidents? That would be sports organizations like FIFA, NFL, NBA, NCAA, hospitals, CDC. But you don't trust them, apparently. (The FIFA data study I linked shows 600+ deaths in 4 years in soccer.) If we don't agree on where to get data there is not much to debate. The headline of the Reuter's article doesn't apply to either the RTN or AFD articles, because neither of them makes that claim. Those articles claim that 25 players died in the last year whereas the past stat over the last decade is 5. I stopped there, would you like me to read it all the way through to provide you a deeper critique?
I'd agree that data quality is an issue, and my mind isn't completely made up on the topic, but I currently have a bias against sources such as FIFA or Reuters because of the volume of misinformation they've provably delivered, amplified and then subsequently memory-holed. The fake impeachments, the bat making out with the gain-of-function-pangolin, Hunter's laptop, the mostly peaceful protests, the "there-is-no-evidence-for" ballot trafficking, Clinton's radioactive Russian cash-out (which only the conspiracy nazi squirrels will tell you about), Epstein's "hanging", the inflated early numbers and now the sudden gaslighting about what we've known for two years about how they've inflated both the case and death counts. These are just to name a few of the dooozies. And I will admit, that to the extent I'm unwilling to spend the time taking a deep dive like the one we're doing on these two articles I am by that degree more susceptible to that bias. What's your nth-hand bias? Are you conscious of it? These debates will happen in the context of the data quality available, but those debates can and should be done free of logical fallacy.
RTN used Wikipedia, but that's not "FIFA data", it's volunteer tabulation of deaths of FIFA players. RTN referred to a database that FIFA evidently established to study the issue as a secondary corroboration, not primary source: In order to know how many deaths have occurred in reality during the last two decades among FIFA players (2001-2020), we used Wikipedia, roughly " List of association of footballers who died while playing" (List of association footballers who died while playing). And only to those players on the list who were active players, not past players.Also, it is important to emphasize that we only referred to SUD and SCD and not to all the sudden deaths The data on Wikipedia shows that between 2001-2020 there were an average of 4.2 deaths per year attributed to sudden cardiac death (SCD) or unexplained sudden death (SUD), with the vast majority being SCD. This figure is confirmed by previous data and longitudinal studies, which also indicate that the risk of sudden cardiac mortality (SCD) and unexplained death (SUD) among FIFA players is about 4-6 cases per year. For example, a study published in 2014 in writing The Physician and Sportsmedicine magazine, 54 deaths of football players registered with FIFA were found as a result of SCD events from 2000 to 2013. In addition, data from FIFA published over the years also strengthen this estimated range. For example, in 2012 it was reported In Haaretz that FIFA has decided to set up a large database to analyze the phenomenon of heart events and player collapses on the pitch. This, in light of the fact that 36 footballers have died on the field over the course of a decade. In the report Of the BBC from 2017 which dealt with the issue of heart attacks among football players on the pitch and addressed FIFA's intention to train players to deal with these situations using defibrillators, cited data provided to the BBC by Global Sports Statistics, according to which 64 players died in the last Now, your objection to the Wikipedia data - putting aside intuitive, emotional bias - would amount to the speculation that there are false reports of the death of FIFA players on the list RTN referenced. I don't trust Wikipedia's politics, so I don't trust their editorial conclusions, but in the main I find the notion that there would be many false reports of death on the list to be doubtful, and so I'd require someone to offer fact-based evidence to support that notion. My current perception of FIFA's statements is that they are conclusory, not detailed, and amount to "nothing to see here". As I've related generally, it would be my cognitive peril to close my mind on that current perception of FIFA's statements. The upshot is simple: if RTN is right, then we'd expect a report of a professional soccer player suddenly dying to happen about once every 2.5 months. I will admit that even this is surprising and counterintuitive to me, but the frequency of the occurrence seems to be elevated. Can I know for certain? No, it's nth-hand, but I've documented the reason for my bias, above.
As far as the study you linked to, I apologize, which one again? Please mind the specific context of the claims that are being made. My understanding is that the RTN claim of a 5x increase in sudden fatalities is in the context of professionals, and involves the ratio 25/5. Clearly, not a significant sample size, but the 5x increase is only presented as a first-order calculation, and noone has made any claims of statistical significance.
|
|
|
|
Post by ghostofmuttley on Jan 13, 2022 10:03:46 GMT
I'm sorry for including that 'fact check' article. My bad. I didn't even read it and I have little sense of it's quality. I only wanted to source the FIFA quote that said they don't see their athletes dying in greater numbers. But I should have used this better source instead: www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-sport-idUSL1N2T81NY. That's also a better general "fact check" article. Why? Because they asked the people who would know if their athletes were dying, the sports organizations themselves. Oh, you don't trust the organizations like FIFA? Did your read RTN's methods? It says they used FIFA data ("according to FIFA data..."), and then counted names on wikipedia. The latter is not good data source. Then they compared that to what? Other FIFA data, or other wikipedia counts? This is the way insane people debate. It's a waste of time. It's like tug-of-war on ice. We have to get more reliable data, not a story based on counting names on wikipedia or in news stories. Who has a more reliable, year over year, way of counting medical incidents? That would be sports organizations like FIFA, NFL, NBA, NCAA, hospitals, CDC. But you don't trust them, apparently. (The FIFA data study I linked shows 600+ deaths in 4 years in soccer.) If we don't agree on where to get data there is not much to debate. And yes, that is indeed what seems to be the largest point of contention. It seems many institutions beyond the MSM has been corrupted. Oh. Yes. And there's that.  It's not a conspiracy if it's public knowledge, after all.
Now, it is a reductive fallacy to brand all information sourced from large corporations as propaganda because of their ever increasing inter-connectivity over time, but as I wrote to Rob in that last, the provable lies keep stacking up. It's not hard to explain. The concentration of wealth at the pyramid tip during our lifetimes has led to the same sort of consolidation that various historical aristocracies were able to establish, this time, on a global scale. It's neither rocket science nor schizophrenic-tinfoil-hat-thinking to notice this, although it serves those interests to contrive and promote that narrative about the noticers. They certainly have the means for the promotion.
It's very simple, as there are fewer and fewer people with more and more power, it's easier for them to engage in very influential and coordinated top-down actions designed to maintain and increase that power. It's just human nature, and it's not like this movie hasn't played out thousands of times already in human history that we already know about.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Corono
Jan 13, 2022 13:49:00 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 13:49:00 GMT
Follow the lazer pointer down rabbit holes of layered lies designed to manipulate your emotions. Your side didn't do too good on WIBIGO this time 'round, eh? Better option during a time of information warfare is to maintain intense criticality and suspension of belief/disbelief, all the while cognizant of the underlying agendas. Sadly, this required time to let the dust settle, and the cat always moves onto the next dancing point by then. all fine and well except I'm pretty sure you've posted links in the past of a dubious nature then, when said dubiousness is pointed out, either cry that the msm/fact checkers can't be trusted.. or just blow it off as if nothing happened as for Gorsuck.. what he says is less important than how he votes.. ie. let's see how many established precedents he votes to reverse update: Jacobson v. Massachusetts |
|
|
|
Corono
Jan 13, 2022 17:57:41 GMT
Post by Figgles on Jan 13, 2022 17:57:41 GMT
|
|
Inavalan
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 1,608
|
Corono
Jan 13, 2022 18:46:02 GMT
Post by Inavalan on Jan 13, 2022 18:46:02 GMT
It is interesting and almost incredible to see how countries about you thought to be more civilized, educated, democratic, happier, went off the reservation ... Australia, Canada, Israel, most of the Western Europe, ... Living a pipe dream is always followed by a rude awakening. They seem to live an awakening alright, but not a "great" one. |
|
|
|
Corono
Jan 15, 2022 2:22:44 GMT
Post by Figgles on Jan 15, 2022 2:22:44 GMT
It is interesting and almost incredible to see how countries about you thought to be more civilized, educated, democratic, happier, went off the reservation ... Australia, Canada, Israel, most of the Western Europe, ... Living a pipe dream is always followed by a rude awakening. They seem to live an awakening alright, but not a "great" one.Indeed, at present, the 'awakening' is still in progress.....a lot of folks get very grumpy and miserable when someone tries to wake them before they want to wake up.   |
|
Also, 100 million doses had been on order since July 2020, with the EUA declared on DECEMBER 11th .. so Sarah doesn't even have her check-fact right there. 
Also, 100 million doses had been on order since July 2020, with the EUA declared on DECEMBER 11th .. so Sarah doesn't even have her check-fact right there. 
