muttley
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Post by muttley on Oct 5, 2018 1:08:04 GMT
Far simpler just to think of Aspirin as a means to an end.  By analogy, I've always been baffled by all the energy that got poured into the creation/evolution debate. Evolution doesn't preclude "God" and creation doesn't preclude the possibility that evolution was how "God" decided to do it.  Perhaps. But once the bell rings, seems there's no turning back. Seeing the inherent emptiness of all appearances, if it's complete, forever changes the way 'causality' in general is seen. We might still engage that appearance, but it's with the full acknowledgement of 'going along with' it vs. buying into it fully. There's definitely a change in the way experience feels, no doubt. Engagement with appearances is inevitable for as long was we're breathing and eating. Every now and then, for decades, out of the blue, I used to look at my hand, or a table or some other object and think "huh. mostly empty space and that not empty space not independent of the observation of it. weird.". See now, that hasn't happened in years.  |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 5, 2018 1:39:03 GMT
I want to go on record as saying I DO believe in miracles, if, by miracles, we mean wacky things happening that rational peeps have no explanation for. Me too, and as I suspect you have too, I've experienced just such things. Oh, yeah, though I'm a curious amphibian and don't like to leave them at the miracle stage.  |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 5, 2018 1:40:51 GMT
It just means there are recurring patterns in the content of Consciousness. You don't see anything like that? Yes, of course I do. I just don't think of them as due to collective beliefs. From whence dost thou thinketh they arise? |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 5, 2018 1:47:16 GMT
Yeah, the collective belief is that mind and body are separate. What is it about a substance that makes it addictive? After all, nobody ever suffers withdrawal from an asparagus addiction.  I say the severity of the withdrawal is exactly proportional to the intensity of the craving. Popular wisdom would say the body is the source of the craving, (however counter intuitive that may be) which is why I originally opted for the term 'desire'. That's beyond my casual layman's knowledge of the topic. My impression of the scientific consensus is that using the substance causes changes in various chemical processes and nerve structures that lead to pleasure during the addiction process and pain during the withdrawal process.
Like I said at the outset, regardless of how you think of the causality, there's an underlying practical, experiential definition. You can set the causality question aside and think of it as: substances that can be associated with these two different processes of pleasure/addiction-withdrawl/pain are considered potentially addictive (depending on person and situation), while substances that can't be, aren't. Absolutely, let's look at the practical experience. I don't care much about what science thinks, cuz I've caught it with it's pants down once too often. Is there a pleasure producing drug that is not addictive or a discomfort producing drug that is? |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 5, 2018 1:48:36 GMT
Well, they do have something to do with those interests. There may be interest in conforming in order to be accepted, or do whatever is required in order to make a living, and so on. The interests may be different than they would be in an ideal world. The objective factors are related to those interests, but the human adult isn't responsible for the objective factors, only their subjective reaction to those factors. Of course. |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 5, 2018 1:57:09 GMT
How about then just "belief"? Do you agree or disagree that strong expectation might make the difference between symptoms vs. no symptoms? I say there's an important relationship there. Yes, that's the pain/suffering feedback effect, so the absence of expectation can lead to minimal or no suffering, and so minimal pain. But I still maintain that some people are in such a state that a painful process is inevitable, regardless of expectation. Also, I take E' to mean that nicotine or opiod withdrawl symptoms happen because of a sort of consensus that they should. I've dialoged with him enough over the years that I think I understand there's a deeper nuance to his meaning other than "everyone believes in gravity so you don't float (heh heh)", but I'm still not on board with it. I would rather say, the mind desires stability for the body, hence a stable platform from which to go about causing havoc. When there is a sense of instability from all the havoc caused, the behavior of that platform may reflect it. In the same way that the functioning of the body can be seen as a reflection of the mind, the functioning of the collective world body can be seen as a reflection of the collective mind. Creation begins and ends right here. |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 5, 2018 2:04:52 GMT
So So does that mean you disagree with the assertion that in terms of experience, anything is possible? The way I see it, these patterns that appear in consciousness involve limitation, those limitations come in a myriad of expression, including, generally speaking, the possibility of impossibility. Complex creations of form are of the nature that certain relationships are mutually exclusive. The mind can imagine the inclusion but the mind imagines a nonsense. A very shallow treatment of the topic is the Zen koan, "draw a square circle".
You are looking at it all from within experience....from within the story. The transcendent view illuminates all possibilities. No-thing is inevitable because nothing arising within the story actually is a cause/catalyst to something else appearing within the story. Cause is itself just a very compelling appearance. Timelessness is the case, but contextually, there is a bone, and there is a break in that bone. The pattern in consciousness is a sequence of events involving a process over time. Healing of a human bone takes time. The relationship between the appearance of the bone and the appearance of the break of the bone conspire to a constraint. Since anything is possible, constraints and impossibility are as possible as miracles, and also alot more likely. I don't think anybody's saying the appearance of impossibility can't happen, but even in the midst of that experience of impossibility, all things remain possible. (you're on the verge of creating a paradox, and you know what I think about those. ) |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 5, 2018 2:26:19 GMT
Contextually valid, but ultimately cause always finds it's way back to consciousness (or Consciousness), and consciousness forms and reforms the body accordingly. That's also why I reject the idea of depression being caused by imbalances in brain chemistry. Causality, forming, re-forming: these all implicate a process. " Creation", involves time. There's some serious value to at least considering your ideas of flipping the sense of causality, for sure, but my point is that a person's body can get into a state where they are inevitably going to have to go through a painful process, regardless of whether or not they're suffering, and addiction withdrawal has the potential -- given the specifics of the person and their situation -- to be one of those processes. Yes, virtually inevitable, and for the same reason gravity is virtually inevitable. However, understanding WIBIGO has the potential to alter that process. There's what I call a sphere of influence where personal creation (creation that influences only the individual in question, for the most part) is concerned, and you would probly consider this the miracle zone. |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 5, 2018 2:35:19 GMT
I don't know about 'taking responsibility' for interest. Fact is, we have no control over arising interests.... seeing and acknowledging the presence of interest, is what I'm talking about. Yes, we differ on this point. I see human adulthood as a matter of degree, and I see this as the furthest the human adult can go, when they account for the notion that there is a greater, holistic movement that leads to and in which context those interests appear.
But, if anything is possible, how is it that it's not possible for you to influence the interests that arise to you? Personally, I've found it to be a fun game to play, both in the past when I thought I was a people peep, and also now. It's just that now, the rules of the game have changed.  There are some caveats regarding the 'all things are possible' thing. The reason all things are possible is because Consciousness is the cause, and Consciousness has no boundaries. The person that we would have becoming his own creator is, himself, a creation of Consciousness and is virtually defined by limitations. Having said that, it IS possible for Consciousness to create the appearance of individual creation. |
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Oct 5, 2018 15:28:28 GMT
I have to begin from the realization that nothing in this physical world is causing something else to happen. Then I have to ask, why does Acetaminophen seem to numb pain? I can look to the placebo effect to see how 'expectation' influences the outcome, but I'm left with explaining why I can spike your drink with a pill and cause an effect when there is no expectation on your part or knowledge as to what I've done. And yet there IS an expectation on MY part, and by extension, the belief regarding those pain relief effects is present in others (assuming there ARE others. Let's not go there.) These concepts held personally and collectively are the fodder for creation itself. I know that Aspirin does not cause pain relief, (Consciousness does) but I also know that taking Aspirin will result in pain relief regardless.  This is where I go New Age and start talking about collective consciousness and co-creation. Far simpler just to think of Aspirin as a means to an end.
By analogy, I've always been baffled by all the energy that got poured into the creation/evolution debate. Evolution doesn't preclude "God" and creation doesn't preclude the possibility that evolution was how "God" decided to do it. Yeah, I've had the same thought. |
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This is where I go New Age and start talking about collective consciousness and co-creation.