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Post by Figgles on Nov 14, 2017 19:01:24 GMT
I've noticed a bit of conversation on ST about the difference and similarity between a cc experience vs. realization...and it's re-awakened my interest in exploring this a bit further.
I'm with E here in seeing that we have to be very careful with so called "Cc expereinces."
I feel it is so important not to get sucked in to believing that the content of a very profound and earth shattering experience is telling you something true 'about' experiential content.
This describes Reefs explanation for how/why he knows that others who appear to him, are in fact, perceiving, experiencing, consciously aware.
It's one thing if a particular experience happens 'in tandem with' a falling away of a previously held to ontology or belief, but what I am seeing, is that most who have cc experiences and tout them as being the equivalent of realization in terms of informing mind, are far too focused upon the content of the experience vs. the seeing through, or falling away of previously held to knowledge...which is really what all realizations are.
In realization, you come out of it with less knowledge. Whereas, seems to me, if you are holding onto a CC experience, you come away knowing more stuff rather than knowing less stuff. Folks who speak of their CC's, even those who say they are not clinging to the content, still nevertheless, DO spend time describing that content, usually far more time actually, than they spend upon describing the previously held to beliefs and ideas that got dispelled by the realization aspect of the happening.
E, you said something to the effect on ST, of: An experience can either leave one deeper anchored into experience, or it can point him beyond the experiential.....
I very much agree that it is important with a CC (and I have my share of them fwiw), not to fall into being led deeper into the dream. After all, the deeper into the dream content we go, the more we lose sight that it is dream content.
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Enigma
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Post by Enigma on Nov 15, 2017 6:14:30 GMT
I've noticed a bit of conversation on ST about the difference and similarity between a cc experience vs. realization...and it's re-awakened my interest in exploring this a bit further. I'm with E here in seeing that we have to be very careful with so called "Cc expereinces." I feel it is so important not to get sucked in to believing that the content of a very profound and earth shattering experience is telling you something true 'about' experiential content. This describes Reefs explanation for how/why he knows that others who appear to him, are in fact, perceiving, experiencing, consciously aware. It's one thing if a particular experience happens 'in tandem with' a falling away of a previously held to ontology or belief, but what I am seeing, is that most who have cc experiences and tout them as being the equivalent of realization in terms of informing mind, are far too focused upon the content of the experience vs. the seeing through, or falling away of previously held to knowledge...which is really what all realizations are. In realization, you come out of it with less knowledge. Whereas, seems to me, if you are holding onto a CC experience, you come away knowing more stuff rather than knowing less stuff. Folks who speak of their CC's, even those who say they are not clinging to the content, still nevertheless, DO spend time describing that content, usually far more time actually, than they spend upon describing the previously held to beliefs and ideas that got dispelled by the realization aspect of the happening. E, you said something to the effect on ST, of: An experience can either leave one deeper anchored into experience, or it can point him beyond the experiential.....I very much agree that it is important with a CC (and I have my share of them fwiw), not to fall into being led deeper into the dream. After all, the deeper into the dream content we go, the more we lose sight that it is dream content. I was pointing out the difference between influencing mind (which CC experiences clearly do) and informing mind, which is how we talk about the effect of realization. "One can be influenced by experience in such a way as to drive one deeper into illusion, or informed by realization by which we mean oriented away from illusion. " My interest over there was in exploring the idea that perhaps a CC does not inform the mind but rather may (or may not) follow or attend a realization that does. As ZD says, CC experiences don't generally lead to SR, and that may be why. I don't believe I'm going to have any luck with my exploration. I'm not buying the argument that a CC experience isn't really an experience because it includes the experience of no experiencer. Also not buying the idea that realization is also an experience, as the realization itself is devoid of mind and timeless. CC clearly involves a mind state, and apparently involves attachment. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 7:16:59 GMT
I've noticed a bit of conversation on ST about the difference and similarity between a cc experience vs. realization...and it's re-awakened my interest in exploring this a bit further. I'm with E here in seeing that we have to be very careful with so called "Cc expereinces." I feel it is so important not to get sucked in to believing that the content of a very profound and earth shattering experience is telling you something true 'about' experiential content. This describes Reefs explanation for how/why he knows that others who appear to him, are in fact, perceiving, experiencing, consciously aware. It's one thing if a particular experience happens 'in tandem with' a falling away of a previously held to ontology or belief, but what I am seeing, is that most who have cc experiences and tout them as being the equivalent of realization in terms of informing mind, are far too focused upon the content of the experience vs. the seeing through, or falling away of previously held to knowledge...which is really what all realizations are. In realization, you come out of it with less knowledge. Whereas, seems to me, if you are holding onto a CC experience, you come away knowing more stuff rather than knowing less stuff. Folks who speak of their CC's, even those who say they are not clinging to the content, still nevertheless, DO spend time describing that content, usually far more time actually, than they spend upon describing the previously held to beliefs and ideas that got dispelled by the realization aspect of the happening. E, you said something to the effect on ST, of: An experience can either leave one deeper anchored into experience, or it can point him beyond the experiential.....I very much agree that it is important with a CC (and I have my share of them fwiw), not to fall into being led deeper into the dream. After all, the deeper into the dream content we go, the more we lose sight that it is dream content. I was pointing out the difference between influencing mind (which CC experiences clearly do) and informing mind, which is how we talk about the effect of realization. "One can be influenced by experience in such a way as to drive one deeper into illusion, or informed by realization by which we mean oriented away from illusion. " My interest over there was in exploring the idea that perhaps a CC does not inform the mind but rather may (or may not) follow or attend a realization that does. As ZD says, CC experiences don't generally lead to SR, and that may be why. I don't believe I'm going to have any luck with my exploration. I'm not buying the argument that a CC experience isn't really an experience because it includes the experience of no experiencer. Also not buying the idea that realization is also an experience, as the realization itself is devoid of mind and timeless. CC clearly involves a mind state, and apparently involves attachment. In my opinion, it must be an experience because it's not informing anything. It's a different kind of experience which people tend to mistake as realization. |
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Post by Figgles on Nov 15, 2017 18:00:35 GMT
I was pointing out the difference between influencing mind (which CC experiences clearly do) and informing mind, which is how we talk about the effect of realization. "One can be influenced by experience in such a way as to drive one deeper into illusion, or informed by realization by which we mean oriented away from illusion."Nice. I don't believe I'm going to have any luck with my exploration. I'm not buying the argument that a CC experience isn't really an experience because it includes the experience of no experiencer. Also not buying the idea that realization is also an experience, as the realization itself is devoid of mind and timeless. CC clearly involves a mind state, and apparently involves attachment. Yes, In my experience (and of course, a cc experience is indeed an experience and as such, does involve mind state and time), cc experiences that occurred, seemed to be a sort of experiential mirroring (perhaps..?) of a realization that had previously informed mind. So, I would say that when a cc experience arises in a mind that's been informed, there is no tendency to cling to the content of the cc experience to take it as some kind of fundamental Truth about experience, but if mind has not been informed, it's almost a given that the content of the cc experience will take on a sense of great importance, as of course, the very nature of cc experiences is that they are very different, profound seeming, intense and often extremely pleasurable in contrast with normal, everyday experience. can they happen in tandem? (a realization Alongside a cc experience?)...I'd say yes, but again, because of the nature of having a special kind of experience, it's very likely that the two could be conflated as mind tries to put it all together after the fact. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Nov 16, 2017 0:13:30 GMT
I was pointing out the difference between influencing mind (which CC experiences clearly do) and informing mind, which is how we talk about the effect of realization. "One can be influenced by experience in such a way as to drive one deeper into illusion, or informed by realization by which we mean oriented away from illusion. " My interest over there was in exploring the idea that perhaps a CC does not inform the mind but rather may (or may not) follow or attend a realization that does. As ZD says, CC experiences don't generally lead to SR, and that may be why. I don't believe I'm going to have any luck with my exploration. I'm not buying the argument that a CC experience isn't really an experience because it includes the experience of no experiencer. Also not buying the idea that realization is also an experience, as the realization itself is devoid of mind and timeless. CC clearly involves a mind state, and apparently involves attachment. In my opinion, it must be an experience because it's not informing anything. It's a different kind of experience which people tend to mistake as realization. Well, whether it informs mind is the arguable point but, yes, I agree it's likely a different sort of experience. |
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Nov 16, 2017 0:21:40 GMT
I was pointing out the difference between influencing mind (which CC experiences clearly do) and informing mind, which is how we talk about the effect of realization. "One can be influenced by experience in such a way as to drive one deeper into illusion, or informed by realization by which we mean oriented away from illusion."Nice. I don't believe I'm going to have any luck with my exploration. I'm not buying the argument that a CC experience isn't really an experience because it includes the experience of no experiencer. Also not buying the idea that realization is also an experience, as the realization itself is devoid of mind and timeless. CC clearly involves a mind state, and apparently involves attachment. Yes, In my experience (and of course, a cc experience is indeed an experience and as such, does involve mind state and time), cc experiences that occurred, seemed to be a sort of experiential mirroring (perhaps..?) of a realization that had previously informed mind. So, I would say that when a cc experience arises in a mind that's been informed, there is no tendency to cling to the content of the cc experience to take it as some kind of fundamental Truth about experience, but if mind has not been informed, it's almost a given that the content of the cc experience will take on a sense of great importance, as of course, the very nature of cc experiences is that they are very different, profound seeming, intense and often extremely pleasurable in contrast with normal, everyday experience. can they happen in tandem? (a realization Alongside a cc experience?)...I'd say yes, but again, because of the nature of having a special kind of experience, it's very likely that the two could be conflated as mind tries to put it all together after the fact. Sounds likely. Perhaps the experience is that particular mind's way of being informed. |
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