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Post by Figgles on Jun 10, 2017 22:05:49 GMT
When you acquired the ability to silence the mind the sense perceptions didn't become more acute? Yes, for a while. And then I would become hyper aware of various stuff only to breakdown with probably a new breakthrough realization following after that. Nothing that a thought about a woman can't do for me. It all takes time and energy I could devote being aware to more interesting stuff, for myself. It sounds like you came away then from silencing of mind, with a new seeing of what was truly important to you? If so...not a bad thing at all. I certainly can't argue with that. Engaging thought/mind can be incredibly enjoyable....and there are some who tout quietude of mind, that seem to hold a degree of disdain for any kind of mind engagement...as though, silence is preferable over an enjoyable interlude of minding. No doubt, you don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For me, quietude of mind actually served me to engage with thoughts in a conscious matter, instead of getting pulled off in 'the ditch' at times, with thoughts that really did not serve my intention of enjoyment, but instead, were followed unconsciously, more out of habit than anything else.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 10, 2017 22:11:09 GMT
I'm not sure I understand what you're sharing here, but it's okay. I happen to somehow know my role is to be. Nothing else. In that realization life becomes effortless. I am simple. If it is so, I don't get what you are doing in this forum. You should be out looking at the grass grow. This forum is anything but simple. But you asked me if silencing my mind didn't make my senses more acute. And I told you yes, it did. Why is that desirable? Blind men also get more acute senses otherwise, but nobody aspires to be blind. Watching grass grow, engaging on a forum, shopping, painting, there is not one of those for me that is complicated. All at various times are enjoyable, so I don't get why you say this forum is not simple....would love to hear more on that. As for the senses becoming more acute. In the case of meditation, the reason is not that something that served you has now been shut down, it's because something that did not serve you, has been seen for what it is, and there's no longer the interest arising that eventuates in following it.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 10, 2017 22:20:33 GMT
Seems logical, as there is no such thing as experiencing oneself You are getting acute senses in expense of your thought process. That that is desirable, is your very personal matter. I've decided it's not worth it, and that's mine. Thought processes still continue, you're just far more aware of all of it. You don't lose the ability to think or to follow thoughts that interest you. What you've lost is the tendency to follow thought tangents 'blindly.' I don't really see that as something of value being lost. It is that phenomena that causes one negative thought to snowball into a negative attitude, which then has one convinced she is living a negative story. Thoughts that are enjoyed are never the problem....you don't have to do away with those. For the record, Given the choice, I would actually far prefer to be engaged in a tangent of positive, joyful thought, than absent all thought. A mind though, that can easily be absent thought, is going to be much more predisposed to joyful thought, when thought is happening. hehe... AS I see it, once suffering has been seen to be 'finite,' enjoyment becomes 'infinite.'
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 14:59:10 GMT
Yes, when I first started meditation the mind was running amok. There was much efforting. But that was then, and this is now. Now, throughout the day I simply watch the breath. Shifting to the witness is subtle. Effortless. If I had it to do all over again, I would still incorporate meditation. Yes, there is no doubt for me, that the practice of meditation does change the pattern of minding in ways that then become habitual. Thus, that which may have at one time, required an element of 'direction,' now just happens rather naturally. I still meet the day before it begins with mantra meditation. Opening up the floodgates sets the tone for the day. Then, throughout the day, I'll engage with awareness of the breath, or placing my attention on the still presence within activity. Even mindful walking enhances the relationship. Staying centered and watching how I perform in any given situation, relationship, work, or play is kinda fun. Wave and Ocean. I and Thou. The reality of duality is Unity.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 11, 2017 17:05:02 GMT
Yes, there is no doubt for me, that the practice of meditation does change the pattern of minding in ways that then become habitual. Thus, that which may have at one time, required an element of 'direction,' now just happens rather naturally. I still meet the day before it begins with mantra meditation. Opening up the floodgates sets the tone for the day. Then, throughout the day, I'll engage with awareness of the breath, or placing my attention on the still presence within activity. Even mindful walking enhances the relationship. Staying centered and watching how I perform in any given situation, relationship, work, or play is kinda fun. Wave and Ocean. I and Thou. The reality of duality is Unity. Beautiful!
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Post by Theodore on Jun 11, 2017 17:25:02 GMT
I don't think the mind's purpose is to slow down by effort. My efforts in meditation showed me that much. I would say, If meditation feels like an effort, then you are following some idea about a 'should,' instead of what actually interests you. If meditation just feels like one more 'chore-like' activity to add your list of 'to do's', then I agree, no point spending any time on it. If/when the interest to quiet mind becomes strong enough, folks engage in meditation. And when that happens, it doesn't feel like a chore and any sense of effort that might initially arise, is effort that is felt to be 'well spent.' Yeah. For how many people is that true though?
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Post by Theodore on Jun 11, 2017 17:26:50 GMT
Yes, I'm getting tired when I watch too much. Of course, watching your breath is much effort, and it involves a huge opportunity cost. It could be useful for some people, but I bet it's an infinitesmal fraction of the ones who practice it. What is the huge 'opportunity cost' as you see it? As i see it, a mind that is not churning 100 miles per hour, is going to be far more able to see things of importance that leads to a better quality of experience. Hundreds if not thousands of hours trying to keep an organ that tries to tell you something signalling its message silent, plus whatever energy is spent to keeping all this stuff under the mat.
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Post by Theodore on Jun 11, 2017 17:29:53 GMT
Yes, you became better at silencing the mind. That's very normal. It still involves a price to pay. I had acquired the ability to silence the mind and I was still miserable. Misery doesn't reside in the mind exclusively. In my view, when the mind is running amok, there is a good reason. The last thing I want to do is silence it. I disagree. "Misery" as I see it, does solely reside in minding about life. Absent any thought about 'my story,' there can be no sense of misery. That does not mean though that I vilify minding....It's just important to see it for what it is. There is only a price to pay if one loses something.....in becoming adept at quieting the mind at will, one does not lose the ability to engage thought, he just loses the propensity to get swept up and away in thought, without being consciously aware as to the fact of that happening. If mind is running amok, it's going to be very unlikely that I am able to adequately look into (let alone see) why it is doing so. In order for that kind of insight to happen, things gotta get at least a little more quiet. Really? Hasn't your mind been silent when your whole other experience was miserable? That's very lucky if so. I know when I'm lost away in thought, and I know that if I disrupt that is like disrupting any other bodily process that may want to occur. If I disrupt the process, I'm disrupting something. That something has a reason to be there, it's not arbitrary. Afterwards, of course it gets more silent, but that will happen anyway.
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Post by Theodore on Jun 11, 2017 17:54:34 GMT
Seems logical, as there is no such thing as experiencing oneself You are getting acute senses in expense of your thought process. That that is desirable, is your very personal matter. I've decided it's not worth it, and that's mine. Thought processes still continue, you're just far more aware of all of it. You don't lose the ability to think or to follow thoughts that interest you. What you've lost is the tendency to follow thought tangents 'blindly.' I don't really see that as something of value being lost. It is that phenomena that causes one negative thought to snowball into a negative attitude, which then has one convinced she is living a negative story. Thoughts that are enjoyed are never the problem....you don't have to do away with those. For the record, Given the choice, I would actually far prefer to be engaged in a tangent of positive, joyful thought, than absent all thought. A mind though, that can easily be absent thought, is going to be much more predisposed to joyful thought, when thought is happening. hehe... AS I see it, once suffering has been seen to be 'finite,' enjoyment becomes 'infinite.' Well, one of our big differences is supposing positive thought to be an absolute end unto itself. But there are positive thoughts that can lead you to being dead for example, having not considered their negative counterparts. The way I see it, the mind is like our stomach-intestines process. Minds can have diarrhea, and if diarrhea happens in front of other people, you can apologise and move on. But holding on to the diarrhea, only postpones the problem at best. Even if the mind diarrhea disappears (and it doesn't), there really is value into letting that intellectual diarrhea dissipate than stopping it in its tracks. I haven't seen enjoyment becoming infinite yet, it would really be a different life for me if it showed itself as such, while suffering is already finite in my eyes. More importantly, a simpler life, with intermittent positive thoughts here and there, gardening, foruming, paintning, is the preferrable choice of a few people. It could be perfect for you, and that's fine, but between this and saying that a simpler life follows the command of God, or Consciousness, or is the spiritual thing to do for anybody, there is a huuuuge leap to be made. What you describe is hell for me in my particular situation, and that makes for a simple proof that spirituality and its directives isn't God's, it's human's.
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Post by Figgles on Jun 11, 2017 23:08:32 GMT
I would say, If meditation feels like an effort, then you are following some idea about a 'should,' instead of what actually interests you. If meditation just feels like one more 'chore-like' activity to add your list of 'to do's', then I agree, no point spending any time on it. If/when the interest to quiet mind becomes strong enough, folks engage in meditation. And when that happens, it doesn't feel like a chore and any sense of effort that might initially arise, is effort that is felt to be 'well spent.' Yeah. For how many people is that true though? I think there are lots of folks who actually enjoy meditation and don't feel it is an effort at all.
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