bluey
New Member
Posts: 26
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Post by bluey on May 14, 2017 23:19:23 GMT
While I've warmed to his books as they progressed, as it really does seem as though his "I don't do heart," is losing it's grip, I very much resonate with the following amazon reviews. Between the two, his apparent egoic narcissism gets addressed as well as his extreme focus upon the duality of "I'm enlightened/Your not." I read the book back in 2006/7 and I recall reading the reviews with interest Yeah, the problem with his work is well identified here, the duality he creates between asleep/liberated is really strong, and I guess the purpose of it was to destroy fashionable (at the time) new agey and meditation type experiences, states, ideas etc. I actually quite liked that about it, but could also see the problem with it. And his attempt to destroy what he sees as 'spiritual correctness', he created this sort of 'non-dual correctness' in which no one was ever allowed to speak of spiritual experiences, or love, or 'levels' of awakening. It's so clear to me that it was out of this that 'Ruthless Truth' was born, this sort of 'pseudo tough guy no holds barred uncompromising Truth-speak'. And again, the problem is that there really is a relevance to spiritual experiences, love, compassion, understanding and 'levels' of awakening. If it really was as clear cut as being either 'awake' or 'liberated', then the liberated would be easy to spot. And we've all seen on forums the massive disagreements over who is self-realized and who isn't. It's much messier than that in reality. Yes true why it's important to work through and see where your own projections may attract a wrong teacher as a true teacher and student relationship is one of work on Self and not on psychological satisfaction. The projections baggage a student brings have to be made conscious and seen through otherwise they will transfer their emotional childhood/ selfhood projections on to the teacher and can delay the waking up process. And saying that the teacher has to be beyond countertransference i.e. the need to be liked, honoured, to be seen as a great teacher etc as a certain bonding has to be created otherwise he or she will end up exploiting the student as the teacher may have come out too early as they may have had issues around sex power and intimacy beforehand and the realisation has still yet to integrate these parts. And the student teacher relationship is intimate as the teacher may not act in accordance with conventional ideas of what is seen as good to shake you up out of the sleep to bring you in to the now but compassion will be behind the action. He may walk past you ignore you to see what arises in yourself as you make out your progress meditation is making your mind more still and you don't feel reactive anymore. And a part may arise in the student when his or parent left them walked past them in the street. Like bulleh shah one tradition tells of a story it may be true or not. All the students felt he was the ideal student seeker but his teacher said there's much in the way. And the students disagreed but he said I will show you. He had invited his teacher to his sisters wedding but he never went he sent a student dressed up in rags. At the wedding bulleh shah felt impressed at the high scholarly guests and how he had renounced all his learning for his Sat Guru. When the student went to the wedding and tried to embrace him he felt shy to embrace him to introduce him in front of the other wealthy guests. On return he told his teacher I went in your name but it's not an insult on me but he did his best to ignore me. So in ignoring me he is ignoring you. As I went as you. When bulleh returned his Sat Guru refused to see him for a good while. His projections pain body came up and he cried for weeks longed for his teachers presence but his teacher had to ignore him. Not feed that side of him. And he tried everything to see him and in desperation even dressed up as a dancing girl at an event his teacher was at. Only then the teacher said is that you bulleh and he said no I am bulla ( a fool lost my way) Only then his teacher embraced him. Tradition says as he danced he lost himself he sang Your love has made me dance, Like a mad person. Oh healer (Shah Inayat) come fast, Or else I shall die. Peacocks have entered in this garden of love. I found both Kaba & Kiblah in your love. After having wounded me, You don’t even seek any news of me. On this path of love, O mother, do not make me turn back, For who can hold a boat once it has set sail, But I was foolish, To have joined and left with the boatmen. O Bulleh Shah, lets go to Shah Inayat’s door, The one who has dressed me, In green and red. When I tapped my feet and danced, I found my beloved. Your love has established itself within me. This bowl of poison I drank myself.
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Post by Figgles on May 15, 2017 15:59:01 GMT
While I've warmed to his books as they progressed, as it really does seem as though his "I don't do heart," is losing it's grip, I very much resonate with the following amazon reviews. Between the two, his apparent egoic narcissism gets addressed as well as his extreme focus upon the duality of "I'm enlightened/Your not." I read the book back in 2006/7 and I recall reading the reviews with interest Yeah, the problem with his work is well identified here, the duality he creates between asleep/liberated is really strong, and I guess the purpose of it was to destroy fashionable (at the time) new agey and meditation type experiences, states, ideas etc. I actually quite liked that about it, but could also see the problem with it. And his attempt to destroy what he sees as 'spiritual correctness', he created this sort of 'non-dual correctness' in which no one was ever allowed to speak of spiritual experiences, or love, or 'levels' of awakening. It's so clear to me that it was out of this that 'Ruthless Truth' was born, this sort of 'pseudo tough guy no holds barred uncompromising Truth-speak'. And again, the problem is that there really is a relevance to spiritual experiences, love, compassion, understanding and 'levels' of awakening. If it really was as clear cut as being either 'awake' or 'liberated', then the liberated would be easy to spot. And we've all seen on forums the massive disagreements over who is self-realized and who isn't. It's much messier than that in reality. Yes, exactly. And yes, agreed that the whole "Ruthless Truth" movement was also born of that very human, very personal, negative reaction to supposed status quo spiritual teachings....the seeing of those ideas as the ideas they are, and the importance of seeing that, getting mixed up with a need to then, 'eschew' the experiential. 'Pseudo tough guy,' is a perfect description. And wow, talk about identifying with a 'false self,' and mistakingly believing you've transcended the personal. I too, see this as a baby/bathwater thingy....where it is important to see spiritual experiences and states for what they are, and not get stuck there, but equally, we don't need to vilify or eschew those experiences either. As I've said many times, and I think we very much agree, the 'eschewing' of experience is a pitfall of the 2nd mountain position seeing, whereas, if/when one comes full circle, experience is once again okay to engage with to whatever degree the interest may be. There is no longer any danger of getting bamboozled or becoming Lost to/ or by anything that could happen, whereas at 'no mountain' there still is that perceived danger, and thus, there is fear.....at that juncture, everything (peace) is riding upon negation of the experiential in favor of 'Truth.' And yes, great points about it not being near as 'clear-cut' as it's sometimes made out to be....'integration of realization,' is something that imo, is equally as important as the initial realization itself. Absent that, we get angry, pompous, narcissistic people, insisting 'there is no person here,' committing all the same atrocities they would have committed prior to awakening, but now, simply being able to shrug their shoulders and say 'none of it matters.' "Awake," does not equal 'done.... it's really just a beginning of another pathless path.....destination-free journey.
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Post by Figgles on May 15, 2017 16:10:22 GMT
I read the book back in 2006/7 and I recall reading the reviews with interest Yeah, the problem with his work is well identified here, the duality he creates between asleep/liberated is really strong, and I guess the purpose of it was to destroy fashionable (at the time) new agey and meditation type experiences, states, ideas etc. I actually quite liked that about it, but could also see the problem with it. And his attempt to destroy what he sees as 'spiritual correctness', he created this sort of 'non-dual correctness' in which no one was ever allowed to speak of spiritual experiences, or love, or 'levels' of awakening. It's so clear to me that it was out of this that 'Ruthless Truth' was born, this sort of 'pseudo tough guy no holds barred uncompromising Truth-speak'. And again, the problem is that there really is a relevance to spiritual experiences, love, compassion, understanding and 'levels' of awakening. If it really was as clear cut as being either 'awake' or 'liberated', then the liberated would be easy to spot. And we've all seen on forums the massive disagreements over who is self-realized and who isn't. It's much messier than that in reality. Yeah, the core problem with folks like Jed and other people is the inability to not get taken in by spiritual arrogance, or self importance. I see that a lot on ST from the Aristocracy. Zendancer is now claiming how many people have been helped and educated on the forum. And how popular it has become now that Reefs has silenced those that question their self-importance. It's really just too much sometimes.Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk Yes, I very much agree that it's all too easy for spiritual arrogance or self importance to take hold when one believes he has seen something of great importance that most others have not seen. And really, the fact that this is so prevalent amongst those who write about, speak about 'Truth,' is evidence of the fact that realization does not immediately wipe out all 'identification,' as many insist. Many insist that 'personhood' has fallen away, all the while they are holding to a view of themselves in relation to 'others,' that has them 'awake' while the others, remain asleep. That very dichotomy hinges upon a degree of self-identity.....it amazes me how often that gets glossed over. ....and to the bolded....a resounding, Yes. A good case of seeing what you want to see, I'd say.
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Post by Figgles on May 15, 2017 16:12:21 GMT
I read the book back in 2006/7 and I recall reading the reviews with interest Yeah, the problem with his work is well identified here, the duality he creates between asleep/liberated is really strong, and I guess the purpose of it was to destroy fashionable (at the time) new agey and meditation type experiences, states, ideas etc. I actually quite liked that about it, but could also see the problem with it. And his attempt to destroy what he sees as 'spiritual correctness', he created this sort of 'non-dual correctness' in which no one was ever allowed to speak of spiritual experiences, or love, or 'levels' of awakening. It's so clear to me that it was out of this that 'Ruthless Truth' was born, this sort of 'pseudo tough guy no holds barred uncompromising Truth-speak'. And again, the problem is that there really is a relevance to spiritual experiences, love, compassion, understanding and 'levels' of awakening. If it really was as clear cut as being either 'awake' or 'liberated', then the liberated would be easy to spot. And we've all seen on forums the massive disagreements over who is self-realized and who isn't. It's much messier than that in reality. Yes true why it's important to work through and see where your own projections may attract a wrong teacher as a true teacher and student relationship is one of work on Self and not on psychological satisfaction. The projections baggage a student brings have to be made conscious and seen through otherwise they will transfer their emotional childhood/ selfhood projections on to the teacher and can delay the waking up process. And saying that the teacher has to be beyond countertransference i.e. the need to be liked, honoured, to be seen as a great teacher etc as a certain bonding has to be created otherwise he or she will end up exploiting the student as the teacher may have come out too early as they may have had issues around sex power and intimacy beforehand and the realisation has still yet to integrate these parts. And the student teacher relationship is intimate as the teacher may not act in accordance with conventional ideas of what is seen as good to shake you up out of the sleep to bring you in to the now but compassion will be behind the action. He may walk past you ignore you to see what arises in yourself as you make out your progress meditation is making your mind more still and you don't feel reactive anymore. And a part may arise in the student when his or parent left them walked past them in the street. Like bulleh shah one tradition tells of a story it may be true or not. All the students felt he was the ideal student seeker but his teacher said there's much in the way. And the students disagreed but he said I will show you. He had invited his teacher to his sisters wedding but he never went he sent a student dressed up in rags. At the wedding bulleh shah felt impressed at the high scholarly guests and how he had renounced all his learning for his Sat Guru. When the student went to the wedding and tried to embrace him he felt shy to embrace him to introduce him in front of the other wealthy guests. On return he told his teacher I went in your name but it's not an insult on me but he did his best to ignore me. So in ignoring me he is ignoring you. As I went as you. When bulleh returned his Sat Guru refused to see him for a good while. His projections pain body came up and he cried for weeks longed for his teachers presence but his teacher had to ignore him. Not feed that side of him. And he tried everything to see him and in desperation even dressed up as a dancing girl at an event his teacher was at. Only then the teacher said is that you bulleh and he said no I am bulla ( a fool lost my way) Only then his teacher embraced him. Tradition says as he danced he lost himself he sang Your love has made me dance, Like a mad person. Oh healer (Shah Inayat) come fast, Or else I shall die. Peacocks have entered in this garden of love. I found both Kaba & Kiblah in your love. After having wounded me, You don’t even seek any news of me. On this path of love, O mother, do not make me turn back, For who can hold a boat once it has set sail, But I was foolish, To have joined and left with the boatmen. O Bulleh Shah, lets go to Shah Inayat’s door, The one who has dressed me, In green and red. When I tapped my feet and danced, I found my beloved. Your love has established itself within me. This bowl of poison I drank myself. Welcome Bluey!
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bluey
New Member
Posts: 26
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Post by bluey on May 18, 2017 1:59:54 GMT
Yes true why it's important to work through and see where your own projections may attract a wrong teacher as a true teacher and student relationship is one of work on Self and not on psychological satisfaction. The projections baggage a student brings have to be made conscious and seen through otherwise they will transfer their emotional childhood/ selfhood projections on to the teacher and can delay the waking up process. And saying that the teacher has to be beyond countertransference i.e. the need to be liked, honoured, to be seen as a great teacher etc as a certain bonding has to be created otherwise he or she will end up exploiting the student as the teacher may have come out too early as they may have had issues around sex power and intimacy beforehand and the realisation has still yet to integrate these parts. And the student teacher relationship is intimate as the teacher may not act in accordance with conventional ideas of what is seen as good to shake you up out of the sleep to bring you in to the now but compassion will be behind the action. He may walk past you ignore you to see what arises in yourself as you make out your progress meditation is making your mind more still and you don't feel reactive anymore. And a part may arise in the student when his or parent left them walked past them in the street. Like bulleh shah one tradition tells of a story it may be true or not. All the students felt he was the ideal student seeker but his teacher said there's much in the way. And the students disagreed but he said I will show you. He had invited his teacher to his sisters wedding but he never went he sent a student dressed up in rags. At the wedding bulleh shah felt impressed at the high scholarly guests and how he had renounced all his learning for his Sat Guru. When the student went to the wedding and tried to embrace him he felt shy to embrace him to introduce him in front of the other wealthy guests. On return he told his teacher I went in your name but it's not an insult on me but he did his best to ignore me. So in ignoring me he is ignoring you. As I went as you. When bulleh returned his Sat Guru refused to see him for a good while. His projections pain body came up and he cried for weeks longed for his teachers presence but his teacher had to ignore him. Not feed that side of him. And he tried everything to see him and in desperation even dressed up as a dancing girl at an event his teacher was at. Only then the teacher said is that you bulleh and he said no I am bulla ( a fool lost my way) Only then his teacher embraced him. Tradition says as he danced he lost himself he sang Your love has made me dance, Like a mad person. Oh healer (Shah Inayat) come fast, Or else I shall die. Peacocks have entered in this garden of love. I found both Kaba & Kiblah in your love. After having wounded me, You don’t even seek any news of me. On this path of love, O mother, do not make me turn back, For who can hold a boat once it has set sail, But I was foolish, To have joined and left with the boatmen. O Bulleh Shah, lets go to Shah Inayat’s door, The one who has dressed me, In green and red. When I tapped my feet and danced, I found my beloved. Your love has established itself within me. This bowl of poison I drank myself. Welcome Bluey! Thanks figgles. If you need help creating a site linked to this I'm happy to help. Good to read Andrew is in to the healing arts. Felt he had that side.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2017 13:09:51 GMT
I read the book back in 2006/7 and I recall reading the reviews with interest Yeah, the problem with his work is well identified here, the duality he creates between asleep/liberated is really strong, and I guess the purpose of it was to destroy fashionable (at the time) new agey and meditation type experiences, states, ideas etc. I actually quite liked that about it, but could also see the problem with it. And his attempt to destroy what he sees as 'spiritual correctness', he created this sort of 'non-dual correctness' in which no one was ever allowed to speak of spiritual experiences, or love, or 'levels' of awakening. It's so clear to me that it was out of this that 'Ruthless Truth' was born, this sort of 'pseudo tough guy no holds barred uncompromising Truth-speak'. And again, the problem is that there really is a relevance to spiritual experiences, love, compassion, understanding and 'levels' of awakening. If it really was as clear cut as being either 'awake' or 'liberated', then the liberated would be easy to spot. And we've all seen on forums the massive disagreements over who is self-realized and who isn't. It's much messier than that in reality. Yes true why it's important to work through and see where your own projections may attract a wrong teacher as a true teacher and student relationship is one of work on Self and not on psychological satisfaction. The projections baggage a student brings have to be made conscious and seen through otherwise they will transfer their emotional childhood/ selfhood projections on to the teacher and can delay the waking up process. And saying that the teacher has to be beyond countertransference i.e. the need to be liked, honoured, to be seen as a great teacher etc as a certain bonding has to be created otherwise he or she will end up exploiting the student as the teacher may have come out too early as they may have had issues around sex power and intimacy beforehand and the realisation has still yet to integrate these parts. And the student teacher relationship is intimate as the teacher may not act in accordance with conventional ideas of what is seen as good to shake you up out of the sleep to bring you in to the now but compassion will be behind the action. He may walk past you ignore you to see what arises in yourself as you make out your progress meditation is making your mind more still and you don't feel reactive anymore. And a part may arise in the student when his or parent left them walked past them in the street. Like bulleh shah one tradition tells of a story it may be true or not. All the students felt he was the ideal student seeker but his teacher said there's much in the way. And the students disagreed but he said I will show you. He had invited his teacher to his sisters wedding but he never went he sent a student dressed up in rags. At the wedding bulleh shah felt impressed at the high scholarly guests and how he had renounced all his learning for his Sat Guru. When the student went to the wedding and tried to embrace him he felt shy to embrace him to introduce him in front of the other wealthy guests. On return he told his teacher I went in your name but it's not an insult on me but he did his best to ignore me. So in ignoring me he is ignoring you. As I went as you. When bulleh returned his Sat Guru refused to see him for a good while. His projections pain body came up and he cried for weeks longed for his teachers presence but his teacher had to ignore him. Not feed that side of him. And he tried everything to see him and in desperation even dressed up as a dancing girl at an event his teacher was at. Only then the teacher said is that you bulleh and he said no I am bulla ( a fool lost my way) Only then his teacher embraced him. Tradition says as he danced he lost himself he sang Your love has made me dance, Like a mad person. Oh healer (Shah Inayat) come fast, Or else I shall die. Peacocks have entered in this garden of love. I found both Kaba & Kiblah in your love. After having wounded me, You don’t even seek any news of me. On this path of love, O mother, do not make me turn back, For who can hold a boat once it has set sail, But I was foolish, To have joined and left with the boatmen. O Bulleh Shah, lets go to Shah Inayat’s door, The one who has dressed me, In green and red. When I tapped my feet and danced, I found my beloved. Your love has established itself within me. This bowl of poison I drank myself. Welcome bluey!
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bluey
New Member
Posts: 26
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Post by bluey on May 19, 2017 23:12:01 GMT
Thank you Gopal.
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Post by Theodore on May 27, 2017 22:33:48 GMT
I've never read any of his stuff. But I have seen some angst in some of the writings from people who have, or were taught by him. It's like they're describing a love hate relationship. Yeah, no true teacher would allow his followers to put them on a pedestal. Why take advantage of seekers to run your ashram when you could easily afford to pay non seekers to do the work? Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk Every teacher lets the followers to put them on a pedestal, otherwise they wouldn't be teachers. They wouldn't get paid, they wouldn't receive special attention, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2017 22:33:32 GMT
Yeah, no true teacher would allow his followers to put them on a pedestal. Why take advantage of seekers to run your ashram when you could easily afford to pay non seekers to do the work? Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk Every teacher lets the followers to put them on a pedestal, otherwise they wouldn't be teachers. They wouldn't get paid, they wouldn't receive special attention, etc. No, just the teachers and medical professionals who have made a business out of depression. True teachers open a door. That's it.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Jun 3, 2017 4:39:28 GMT
I've never read any of his stuff. But I have seen some angst in some of the writings from people who have, or were taught by him. It's like they're describing a love hate relationship. Yeah, no true teacher would allow his followers to put them on a pedestal. Why take advantage of seekers to run your ashram when you could easily afford to pay non seekers to do the work? Sent from my SM-T210R using Tapatalk Aren't all ashrams run by devotees? (I don't know nuthin, just asking)
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