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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 17:21:35 GMT
That's a false conclusion. If someone is unreliable it doesn't necessarily mean they are unreliable all of the time. And you also have to add the additional factor of translation issues. Nisargadatta didn't write "I am That". It was written by a westerner based on editorial selections of English translations of what he said. It is perfectly legitimate for me to pick out the bits that correspond with my own experience and declare them to be true. Of course it's perfectly legitimate for you to simply pick out the bits that correspond with your own experience and declare those to be true and to ignore the bits that don't and declare them to be unreliable. But if you are actually interested in Truth, you'd do well to give a little more consideration to those bits you are so quick to dismiss. Those bits fwiw, are 'transcendent' of the bits that suggest effortful practice is necessary, which means,they 'trump' those other bits. You would have to tell me exactly what those bits are in order for me to comment. I'm not interested in the truth. There is no such thing which can be objectified.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 17:23:20 GMT
Practice should be the simplest thing of all. This is actually what non-duality is, abiding in nondual awareness. Nothing could be simpler. What's complicated is talking about nonduality and saying, this is non-duality. There's nothing to say about nonduality. If there is then that's the complication of mind you are referring to. There is a point where it is extremely funny to think you ever actually believed that effort or a planned, formal practice was necessary to abide in that which you really are. Abiding in that which you already are means nothing to a seeker who is in a state of ignorance. They are empty words.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 7, 2019 17:27:41 GMT
You've just made "transcendence/freedom" conditional. It's not. There is no practice necessary to simply be as you are. It wasn't 'the practice of TM' that caused realization...if/when practice happens prior to SR, it's merely a correlate not a cause. Similarly, the stream you wade across to get to the field of flowers so you can bask in their scent, is not a cause of that basking...it's correlated yes, it's part and parcel of the story of a path to the field of flowers, but nothing appearing upon the apparent path is actually causing anything else. If one feels compelled to practice, that's fine, it's just important to see that urge and the practice itself as a mere facet of what is ultimately, one unified movement whose cause is prior to/beyond anything arising in experience. If being what you are happens to be in a state of ignorance and suffering then that is not what you are. What you really are is beyond all states...all knowing, which of course mean, beyond suffering. Where there is suffering, there is ignorance/obscuring of true nature. Practice effortfully undertaken for the purpose of removing that ignorance is just heaping more ignorance onto the fire.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 17:29:37 GMT
If being what you are happens to be in a state of ignorance and suffering then that is not what you are. What you really are is beyond all states...all knowing, which of course mean, beyond suffering. Where there is suffering, there is ignorance/obscuring of true nature. Practice effortfully undertaken for the purpose of removing that ignorance is just heaping more ignorance onto the fire. I don't know why you bother. You know I will never agree with your views on spiritual practice. 😀 Go and tell someone who is suffering that they are already beyond suffering. Lol.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 7, 2019 17:37:40 GMT
Of course it's perfectly legitimate for you to simply pick out the bits that correspond with your own experience and declare those to be true and to ignore the bits that don't and declare them to be unreliable. But if you are actually interested in Truth, you'd do well to give a little more consideration to those bits you are so quick to dismiss. Those bits fwiw, are 'transcendent' of the bits that suggest effortful practice is necessary, which means,they 'trump' those other bits. You would have to tell me exactly what those bits are in order for me to comment.I'm not interested in the truth. There is no such thing which can be objectified. "Action does not lead to perfection; perfection is expressed in action. Liberation is not the result of some means skillfully applied, nor of circumstances. It is beyond the causal process. Nothing can compel it, nothing can prevent it. The Self is near and the way to it is easy. All you need doing is doing nothing. Stay open and quiet, that is all. What you seek is so near you that there is no place for a way. Having realized that you cannot influence the results, pay no attention to your desire and fears. Let them come and go. Don't give them the nourishment of interest and attention. There is nothing to do. Just be. Do nothing. Be. No climbing mountains and sitting in caves. I do not even say: "be yourself", since you do not know yourself. Just be. Having seen that you are neither the "outer" world of perceivables, not the "inner" world of thinkables, that you are neither body nor mind, just be. No effort is necessary. Do not imagine that you can change through effort. Violence, even turned against yourself, as in austerities and penance, will remain fruitless. Your needs are unreal and your efforts are meaningless. There is no place for effort in reality. It is selfishness, due to self-identification with the body, that is the main problem and the cause of other problems. And selfishness cannot be removed by effort, only by clear insight into its causes and effects. Effort is a sign of conflict between incompatible desires. They should be seen as they are - then only they dissolve. Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not be convinced that effort will take you nowhere. The self is so self-confident that unless it is totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal conviction is not enough. Hard facts alone can show the absolute nothingness of the self-image. Having realized that I am with, and yet beyond the world, I became free from all desire and fear. I did not reason out that I should be free, I found myself free, unexpectedly, without the least effort. only by negation, as uncaused, independent, unrelated, undivided, uncomposed, unshakable, unquestionable, unreachable by effort. "
Nisargadatta
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 17:38:03 GMT
Practice effortfully undertaken for the purpose of removing that ignorance is just heaping more ignorance onto the fire. I really cannot imagine what it was you were doing when you used to meditate. Is it possible that your current views against practice have been shaped by it not working out for you before? That you didn't get what you expected from it? Of course it's also possible that you just weren't doing a good practice, that you didn't get good instruction. I know everything about practice.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 7, 2019 17:40:09 GMT
There is a point where it is extremely funny to think you ever actually believed that effort or a planned, formal practice was necessary to abide in that which you really are. Abiding in that which you already are means nothing to a seeker who is in a state of ignorance. They are empty words. Yes. And telling a seeker that he will cause himself to become SR if he just practices enough, is also just empty words...an outright lie actually.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 7, 2019 17:45:29 GMT
What you really are is beyond all states...all knowing, which of course mean, beyond suffering. Where there is suffering, there is ignorance/obscuring of true nature. Practice effortfully undertaken for the purpose of removing that ignorance is just heaping more ignorance onto the fire. I don't know why you bother. You know I will never agree with your views on spiritual practice. 😀 Go and tell someone who is suffering that they are already beyond suffering. Lol. Whether or not you agree, I feel compelled to speak the Truth. If someone who is suffering comes to me, I generally don't feel inclined to placate them either with lies or with something that is only going to sound callous.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 17:52:00 GMT
Abiding in that which you already are means nothing to a seeker who is in a state of ignorance. They are empty words. Yes. And telling a seeker that he will cause himself to become SR if he just practices enough, is also just empty words...an outright lie actually. It worked for Nisargadatta.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 7, 2019 17:56:16 GMT
Practice effortfully undertaken for the purpose of removing that ignorance is just heaping more ignorance onto the fire. I really cannot imagine what it was you were doing when you used to meditate. Is it possible that your current views against practice have been shaped by it not working out for you before? That you didn't get what you expected from it? Of course it's also possible that you just weren't doing a good practice, that you didn't get good instruction. I know everything about practice.Except that it is but a correlate to SR, not an actual cause? Fwiw, it was actually through expending considerable effort/time with a planned meditation practice that in a non-meditating moment, came to see that no planning, no effort, no actual 'practice' was necessary so long as there was a genuine interest present to abide in Being vs. in mind. The very focus upon a plan, efforting, setting aside time, was then, clearly seen to be evidence of a lack of that genuine interest to simply and naturally, abide in Being. In the planning and efforting, it was mistakingly believed that 'effort' could 'make up for' the absence of genuine interest. It can't. It doesn't. Where there is genuine sincere interest/intent to abide in Being, it will happen. Here. Now. Simply. No planning, no effort necessary.
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