Enigma
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Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Oct 7, 2019 13:44:31 GMT
They're both true. From the position of the seeker, practice provides a map that leads you from your Home, through the woods, and back to your front door where you seemingly arrive again for the first time. From the position of the sage it's obvious that none of that wandering in the woods actually helped you to find the place from which you began. That's all that Niz is saying, and all that we're saying. If you need to wander in the woods, happy wandering. Nobody has tried to stop you from doing what you need to do to recognize that you have always been Home. Niz was actually incredibly consistent in his dialogs. The apparent contradictions only arise in seeker-mind that can't distinguish existential context. And the words have to be literally taken out of the context of the specific dialogs they were spoken in, at that. He'd tell all the proud or disillusioned super-yogi's who where trying to work and pray and meditate their way to nirvana that they simply didn't know that they were already here and now and infinite. He'd tell people who were confused or genuinely curious or sorrowful or hopeless to attend the sense of being without regard to anything else. Yes, that's how it looks from here too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 13:57:49 GMT
It doesn't matter how you spin it, what that statement says to me is that there is a practice path to Self realization. A sage would never say that spiritual practice didn't help, but would say that you have always being the Self, but the knowledge of it was veiled by the state of ignorance. I've never had a problem with a properly motivated practice, just pointing to the simplicity of the recognition that does not require a practice. Mind always wants to complicate. All that practice is, is the sage telling the seeker "move to this vantage and you'll realize it is not a snake." I would point out sources, folks who were there, claim Niz had his folllowers meditate before satsang.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 14:39:10 GMT
It doesn't matter how you spin it, what that statement says to me is that there is a practice path to Self realization. A sage would never say that spiritual practice didn't help, but would say that you have always being the Self, but the knowledge of it was veiled by the state of ignorance. I've never had a problem with a properly motivated practice, just pointing to the simplicity of the recognition that does not require a practice. Mind always wants to complicate. Practice should be the simplest thing of all. This is actually what non-duality is, abiding in nondual awareness. Nothing could be simpler. What's complicated is talking about nonduality and saying, this is non-duality. There's nothing to say about nonduality. If there is then that's the complication of mind you are referring to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 14:54:58 GMT
Yes and that's what the practice of transcendental meditation revealed very quickly and it was the practice path towards realization. It just doesn't happen by itself.Right, it requires sincerity, honesty, devotion. They are states of being rather than activities of doing. I agree that sincerity, honesty and devotion are important prerequisites of practice, but they are not states of Being, they are psychological qualities or attitudes of approach to practice. They are part of what is called a qualified mind for liberation. These qualifiers by themselves are not enough though. They are merely a preparation for correct spiritual practice. However my own view is that you don't have to get overly strict about it because transcendence/samadhi are the most important experiences, but here they are anyway. steadywisdom.com/qualifications-for-moksha/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 15:20:49 GMT
Hi Enigma, what do you think about this UG Quote? I ask you this because you believe high alert attention inform the mind Truth vs. Truthin’
UG: You will never know the truth because it's a movement. You cannot contain it. You cannot express it. It's not a logically ascertained premise. It has to be your discovery. What good is my experience? We have thousands of experiences recorded. They haven't helped you. It's the hope that keeps you going because hope is the structure. So-called self-realization is the discovery for yourself and by yourself that there is no self to discover. That will be a very shocking thing, I tell you. It's not going to be an easy thing. It's not going to be handed over to you on a gold platter. You have to become completely disillusioned then the truth begins to express itself in its own way. It is useless to try to discover the truth. The search for truth is absurd.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 7, 2019 17:02:11 GMT
True transcendence lies beyond all experience... Yes and that's what the practice of transcendental meditation revealed very quickly and it was the practice path towards realization. It just doesn't happen by itself.You've just made "transcendence/freedom" conditional. It's not. There is no practice necessary to simply be as you are. It wasn't 'the practice of TM' that caused realization...if/when practice happens prior to SR, it's merely a correlate not a cause. Similarly, the stream you wade across to get to the field of flowers so you can bask in their scent, is not a cause of that basking...it's correlated yes, it's part and parcel of the story of a path to the field of flowers, but nothing appearing upon the apparent path is actually causing anything else. If one feels compelled to practice, that's fine, it's just important to see that urge and the practice itself as a mere facet of what is ultimately, one unified movement whose cause is prior to/beyond anything arising in experience.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 7, 2019 17:17:00 GMT
So, if he's not a reliable teacher, why tell me that he at times says practice is important? You're contradicting your point about him being unreliable in touting that as though it means something...same with his talk about practicing himself. That's a false conclusion. If someone is unreliable it doesn't necessarily mean they are unreliable all of the time. And you also have to add the additional factor of translation issues. Nisargadatta didn't write "I am That". It was written by a westerner based on editorial selections of English translations of what he said. It is perfectly legitimate for me to pick out the bits that correspond with my own experience and declare them to be true. Of course it's perfectly legitimate for you to simply pick out the bits that correspond with your own experience and declare those to be true and to ignore the bits that don't and declare them to be unreliable. But if you are actually interested in Truth, you'd do well to give a little more consideration to those bits you are so quick to dismiss. Those bits fwiw, are 'transcendent' of the bits that suggest effortful practice is necessary, which means,they 'trump' those other bits.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 17:17:15 GMT
Yes and that's what the practice of transcendental meditation revealed very quickly and it was the practice path towards realization. It just doesn't happen by itself.You've just made "transcendence/freedom" conditional. It's not. There is no practice necessary to simply be as you are. It wasn't 'the practice of TM' that caused realization...if/when practice happens prior to SR, it's merely a correlate not a cause. Similarly, the stream you wade across to get to the field of flowers so you can bask in their scent, is not a cause of that basking...it's correlated yes, it's part and parcel of the story of a path to the field of flowers, but nothing appearing upon the apparent path is actually causing anything else. If one feels compelled to practice, that's fine, it's just important to see that urge and the practice itself as a mere facet of what is ultimately, one unified movement whose cause is prior to/beyond anything arising in experience. If being what you are happens to be in a state of ignorance and suffering then that is not what you are.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 7, 2019 17:17:52 GMT
They're both true. From the position of the seeker, practice provides a map that leads you from your Home, through the woods, and back to your front door where you seemingly arrive again for the first time. From the position of the sage it's obvious that none of that wandering in the woods actually helped you to find the place from which you began. That's all that Niz is saying, and all that we're saying. If you need to wander in the woods, happy wandering. Nobody has tried to stop you from doing what you need to do to recognize that you have always been Home. Niz was actually incredibly consistent in his dialogs. The apparent contradictions only arise in seeker-mind that can't distinguish existential context. And the words have to be literally taken out of the context of the specific dialogs they were spoken in, at that. He'd tell all the proud or disillusioned super-yogi's who where trying to work and pray and meditate their way to nirvana that they simply didn't know that they were already here and now and infinite. He'd tell people who were confused or genuinely curious or sorrowful or hopeless to attend the sense of being without regard to anything else. Yup.
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Post by Figgles on Oct 7, 2019 17:21:02 GMT
I've never had a problem with a properly motivated practice, just pointing to the simplicity of the recognition that does not require a practice. Mind always wants to complicate. Practice should be the simplest thing of all. This is actually what non-duality is, abiding in nondual awareness. Nothing could be simpler. What's complicated is talking about nonduality and saying, this is non-duality. There's nothing to say about nonduality. If there is then that's the complication of mind you are referring to. There is a point where it is extremely funny to think you ever actually believed that effort or a planned, formal practice was necessary to abide in that which you really are.
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