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Post by Figgles on Nov 13, 2018 15:45:34 GMT
What I have actually found is that in those really extreme circumstances, that which is foundational to arising experience, becomes even more pronounced...it really is like a movie/play unfolding. If anything, engagement with the story was lessened in those moments... rather than increased. That's the way it was anyway to date with regards to the more 'extreme' happenings in my story; a physical attack when working in a group home.... a phone call from paramedics telling me my brother had no detectable heart-beat........giving birth.....getting my head ripped open by a dog while walking home from school....learning my son has fatal genetic disease...during all those experiences, the presence of being rose up front row, center, while the experience sort of faded more into the background. Can I know for certain it will always be that way? Is there something that could still push my buttons to the degree that I get sucked in? I just don't know. But that really doesn't matter. Right here, right now, I am clear that what I am is not something that appears within the story, and that's good enough. what you are is very strongly tied up in such a way it doesn't move! It is allowed to perceive whatever is appearing. This on going appearance carries the feeling along with it. Feeling part is the cause of suffering,happiness,sadness and everything else! I'm not sure if I'm following you here. I would say in those moments of 'extreme circumstance' those ties actually loosened up. Being came to the forefront. I was just a kid when the dog attack thing happened and I recall being ever so aware of this calm center within that was untouched by any of the drama/blood/panic that was happening. AT one point, as my mom had thrown me in the back of the car, a towel to my head, I recall thinking that I should at least try to pretend to be angry at the dog, or fearful or something "normal" like that, but there was just this sense of peaceful presence as I watched myself going through the motions of acting like a kid who had had something awful happen to her. At the forefront of it all, was the sense of "Being" that which could not be harmed...could not be touched by the happening. There weren't really feelings/emotions per se...if anything, I was kind of absent them. I wasn't sad, I wasn't scared, angry, nor was I happy or feeling particularly 'good.' I guess you could equate that which 'shock' to some degree, but the fact that I can still today, after so many years recall the sense of 'presence' underscoring it all, says otherwise. I would actually say that those kinds of extreme circumstances provide a very 'auspicious position' in terms of awakening, seeing that it's all a story/dream...and that what I actually am, is not tied up IN the dream/story.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
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Post by Enigma on Nov 13, 2018 16:04:25 GMT
What I have actually found is that in those really extreme circumstances, that which is foundational to arising experience, becomes even more pronounced...it really is like a movie/play unfolding. If anything, engagement with the story was lessened in those moments... rather than increased. That's the way it was anyway to date with regards to the more 'extreme' happenings in my story; a physical attack when working in a group home.... a phone call from paramedics telling me my brother had no detectable heart-beat........giving birth.....getting my head ripped open by a dog while walking home from school....learning my son has fatal genetic disease...during all those experiences, the presence of being rose up front row, center, while the experience sort of faded more into the background. Can I know for certain it will always be that way? Is there something that could still push my buttons to the degree that I get sucked in? I just don't know. But that really doesn't matter. Right here, right now, I am clear that what I am is not something that appears within the story, and that's good enough. what you are is very strongly tied up in such a way it doesn't move! It is allowed to perceive whatever is appearing. This on going appearance carries the feeling along with it. Feeling part is the cause of suffering,happiness,sadness and everything else! Nonsense!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 16:16:29 GMT
what you are is very strongly tied up in such a way it doesn't move! It is allowed to perceive whatever is appearing. This on going appearance carries the feeling along with it. Feeling part is the cause of suffering,happiness,sadness and everything else! Nonsense! Kind enough to explain me where I go wrong?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2018 17:07:06 GMT
what you are is very strongly tied up in such a way it doesn't move! It is allowed to perceive whatever is appearing. This on going appearance carries the feeling along with it. Feeling part is the cause of suffering,happiness,sadness and everything else! I'm not sure if I'm following you here. I would say in those moments of 'extreme circumstance' those ties actually loosened up. Being came to the forefront. I was just a kid when the dog attack thing happened and I recall being ever so aware of this calm center within that was untouched by any of the drama/blood/panic that was happening. AT one point, as my mom had thrown me in the back of the car, a towel to my head, I recall thinking that I should at least try to pretend to be angry at the dog, or fearful or something "normal" like that, but there was just this sense of peaceful presence as I watched myself going through the motions of acting like a kid who had had something awful happen to her. At the forefront of it all, was the sense of "Being" that which could not be harmed...could not be touched by the happening. There weren't really feelings/emotions per se...if anything, I was kind of absent them. I wasn't sad, I wasn't scared, angry, nor was I happy or feeling particularly 'good.' I guess you could equate that which 'shock' to some degree, but the fact that I can still today, after so many years recall the sense of 'presence' underscoring it all, says otherwise. I would actually say that those kinds of extreme circumstances provide a very 'auspicious position' in terms of awakening, seeing that it's all a story/dream...and that what I actually am, is not tied up IN the dream/story. Story decides your feeling or the way you feel would be decided by the story. The same story we both may feel different. That's the reason sadistic feels different to the given story. So you are not allowed to jump out of the story at any time you are arrested by the movement of story.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 13, 2018 23:57:44 GMT
I'm not sure if I'm following you here. I would say in those moments of 'extreme circumstance' those ties actually loosened up. Being came to the forefront. I was just a kid when the dog attack thing happened and I recall being ever so aware of this calm center within that was untouched by any of the drama/blood/panic that was happening. AT one point, as my mom had thrown me in the back of the car, a towel to my head, I recall thinking that I should at least try to pretend to be angry at the dog, or fearful or something "normal" like that, but there was just this sense of peaceful presence as I watched myself going through the motions of acting like a kid who had had something awful happen to her. At the forefront of it all, was the sense of "Being" that which could not be harmed...could not be touched by the happening. There weren't really feelings/emotions per se...if anything, I was kind of absent them. I wasn't sad, I wasn't scared, angry, nor was I happy or feeling particularly 'good.' I guess you could equate that which 'shock' to some degree, but the fact that I can still today, after so many years recall the sense of 'presence' underscoring it all, says otherwise. I would actually say that those kinds of extreme circumstances provide a very 'auspicious position' in terms of awakening, seeing that it's all a story/dream...and that what I actually am, is not tied up IN the dream/story. Story decides your feeling or the way you feel would be decided by the story. The same story we both may feel different. That's the reason sadistic feels different to the given story. So you are not allowed to jump out of the story at any time you are arrested by the movement of story. First of all, the story does not 'decide' anything. The story is just itself, unfolding...it's not a thing/entity/force that can 'decide' how things will go. But, did you read this? & I really am getting now why E has been so insistent that that passeth understanding, is not a feeling/emotion...but rather, an absence. A momentary feeling of emotional upset does not necessarily mean that the Peace of Being is obscured.
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Enigma
Super Duper Senior Member
Posts: 13,969
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Post by Enigma on Nov 14, 2018 0:14:17 GMT
Kind enough to explain me where I go wrong? We've discussed it all before though I don't understand what the first sentence means. That's new. " what you are is very strongly tied up in such a way it doesn't move! It is allowed to perceive whatever is appearing. This on going appearance carries the feeling along with it. Feeling part is the cause of suffering,happiness,sadness and everything else!" Allowed to perceive by whom? Appearances don't cause feelings. Feeling isn't the cause of happiness, etc. Those ARE the feelings.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 20, 2018 17:15:24 GMT
Fwiw, in my initial post where I used the term "hellish" we weren't specifically talking about one who had realized he is not the body. Rather, I was countering the assertion that one would know for certain he's not dreaming if his experience was of someone taking pliers to him for 15 minutes. I was trying to point out that unwanted stuff happening in experience, physical pain, etc. would not in and of itself prove it's not a dream.
The experience of physical pain was for some reason being equated with certainty that one was not dreaming.
That said, I did then engage the question of how post SR one might still find an experience of torture to be extremely unpleasant. And here I'll carry on;
The realization that I am not the body/mind that appears does not mean that I no longer have an aversion to pain...or that likes/dislikes in general cease. The body/mind is still experienced and within the realm of experience there is still wanted/unwanted.
Being SR does not mean one will happily and willingly offer his body up for a jolly 'ol round of torture.
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Post by Figgles on Nov 20, 2018 17:57:12 GMT
The stories surrounding realization are not important. It's the seeing through, actual realization of "Self" that is important. For some, this seeing through of the false, realization of Self, happens in an instant, for others, it's more of an ongoing progressive, incremental seeing, where no specific moment in experience stands out.
I know for myself, the moments/experiences in time no longer stand out as definable. There is just present moment clarity, and really, that's all that really matters. It's a mistake to get overly attached to any particular experience, even those that 'seemingly' resulted in realization.
Indeed, there are times where realization and experience occur seemingly simultaneouly. It's important though to recognize that the experiential aspect is simply mind trying to frame an absence into something it can chew on. The experiential aspect is not itself 'the realization'. Very important to see.
Some good quotes below the say the same:
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Post by Figgles on Dec 20, 2018 16:45:13 GMT
Exactly. The 'experience' of free will...'choosing freely' may indeed continue, but that's a whole different thing than 'actual' volition. And as you say, we can't have 'no volition' but then a tiny bit of wiggle room where there somehow IS volition. That's similar to saying that the entirety of experiential content is empty of Truth but then insisting that a particular experience does convey Truth..... Wait a minute...that sounds familiar. The clear seeing of no separation, that it's all one unified movement, there is no actual person or thing who chooses to do stuff, really is all encompassing and takes care of any and all ideas pertaining to the actuality of volition. For those who say they see no separation/Oneness but who still insist there is a tiny degree of volition, what they are really arguing for is a tiny bit of separation. Actual Volition would defy 'no separation, one unified movement.'
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Post by Figgles on Dec 20, 2018 16:59:23 GMT
Well said.
The bolded encapsulates it nicely.
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