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Post by Figgles on Feb 13, 2018 1:27:12 GMT
That's pretty desperate Fig. Desperate? I'd join over on ST, & address your posts there, but I'm not able/allowed. Banned, remember? If you refuse to acknowledge my definition of suffering, then in my discourse with you, I'm fine to replace that word with "mental/emotional overlay that turns pain into something intolerable that requires escape." It's gonna make things a little awkward though.  I think you do yourself a disservice to lump pain and suffering together. One can feel sad when a loved one passes away, but still not feel that situation to be intolerable. And we need some kind of a term to delineate the two scenarios. Life is experienced very differently when disappointments result in a sense of wanting to escape 'what is,' vs. an absence of that. One who does find the sense of loss of a loved one to be intolerable, spirals down into grief, depression, despair, which is an entirely different thing than a basic arising sense of sadness over a lost friend or loved one. We need some way of talking about that. The differentiation between pain and suffering imo, suffices nicely. So how then do you define suffering? It's obviously something more than just pain, right? So, how do you define pain then? Inherent in pain is a physiological resistance to it....a turning from that towards alleviation....however, that need not in turn result in a mental/emotional resistance...a conceptual desire to escape this moment. Pain has a physiological resistance component, but it's not necessarily a mental/conceptualized resistance. That's the important distinction that those who distinguish between pain and suffering, are trying to point out. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 13, 2018 1:27:16 GMT
Is there a specific question you would like me to answer? At the moment, your questions of are the dreaded double bind kind, but I'm fine to answer a question you want an answer to. I really cannot come up with a question to ask of you. To be honest, I do not recall asking a question of anyone since being here. I just pay attention. I'm present. If the opportunity presents itself, I'll make the attempt to make someone laugh. However, having said that, if there were a question I felt a need to ask, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't ask it of you. Especially after you tried to project that lacking clarity thingy on me. I enjoy reading posts from people that express things in a simple manner. No need for questions. Yes, okay I'm learning something here. You enjoy reading posts from certain people, but...... you ALSO act to defend those posts and those people (for example, the way you attacked tenka was quite extraordinary) And you lack clarity in your forum communication because of this interest in defending those posts/people. You were never going to answer the question I asked, because you saw it as a challenge to a post/person that you have been enjoying reading. You've basically just been stringing me along, like you have done to other people before me in years gone by. I won't ask a question of you again, I see there is no point, and that's okay. |
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Post by Figgles on Feb 13, 2018 1:30:03 GMT
Again Andrew, your 'agenda' is showing. You fear that delineating pain from suffering is going to result in abject cruelty, an absence of compassion for the pain, discomfort or fear that another is apparently experiencing, and that is coloring your view here, fueling your efforts to lump suffering and pain together. the true value in defining suffering as a mental/thought component, a conceptual overlay placed on top of pain, either physical or emotional, is in seeing first hand the role that mind plays in obscuring peace. I assure you, one who is at peace himself, continues to respond with a compassion and empathy that is wholly appropriate to the situation, in the event that another appears before him, who appears to be in pain.
It is actually those who get swept up within experience, lost to it, who then resort to further conceptualization to formulate excuses for why they are failing to behave kindly and respectfully to others. (Fwiw, I see you doing this yourself....you are so swept up in the idea of a broken world that needs fixing, that you've behaved unkindly, with a lack of consideration, to those right under you nose). 'Cept, no one is rationalizing away anything. If some-one, some-thing is appearing to be in pain, discomfort, withdrawing from an unwanted stimulus, and the one who sees that is present, clear, conscious, and not at all swept up in the story, the action taken will always be appropriately compassionate. To see the role mind/conceptualization plays in escalating and deepening basic pain either mental/emotional or physical, into 'suffering,' does not mean that one becomes insensitive to the apparent pain or suffering of another. If anything, I'd say it makes one more able to respond appropriately. This was my experience in the car-deer accident. As the Present absence/Being, I felt what needed to be done next to alleviate the deer's pain. The Being-feeling-thinking-doing process kicked in with regard to a solution upon seeing the outcome. There weren't a lot of options. I stayed until it came to a conclusion. It was a heart knowing that kept me there until the end. Yup. A great example. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 13, 2018 1:34:50 GMT
That's pretty desperate Fig. Desperate? I'd join over on ST, & address your posts there, but I'm not able/allowed. Banned, remember? If you refuse to acknowledge my definition of suffering, then in my discourse with you, I'm fine to replace that word with "mental/emotional overlay that turns pain into something intolerable that requires escape." It's gonna make things a little awkward though. Yes, please use those words. I think you do yourself a disservice to lump pain and suffering together. One can feel sad when a loved one passes away, but still not feel that situation to be intolerable. And we need some kind of a term to delineate the two scenarios. Life is experienced very differently when disappointments result in a sense of wanting to escape 'what is,' vs. an absence of that. I've been talking mainly about physical pain, I've barely touched on emotional pain. One who does find the sense of loss of a loved one to be intolerable, spirals down into grief, depression, despair, which is an entirely different thing than a basic arising sense of sadness over a lost friend or loved one. We need some way of talking about that. The differentiation between pain and suffering imo, suffices nicely. Well, I would say that one that is experiencing emotional 'pain' is suffering. So how then do you define suffering? It's obviously something more than just pain, right? It's the definition everyone knows...distress, discomfort, dis-ease, hardship etc. So, how do you define pain then? Inherent in pain is a physiological resistance to it....a turning from that towards alleviation....however, that need not in turn result in a mental/emotional resistance...a conceptual desire to escape this moment. Pain is the sensation, suffering is the felt component of the sensation. Pain has a physiological resistance component, but it's not necessarily a mental/conceptualized resistance. That's the important distinction that those who distinguish between pain and suffering, are trying to point out. Pain is a sensation that comes with a suffering component (similarly there are sensations that come with a 'feel good' component). We offer comfort because of that suffering component. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 13, 2018 1:41:26 GMT
Yes, okay I'm learning something here. You enjoy reading posts from certain people, but...... you ALSO act to defend those posts and those people (for example, the way you attacked tenka was quite extraordinary) And you lack clarity in your forum communication because of this interest in defending those posts/people. You were never going to answer the question I asked, because you saw it as a challenge to a post/person that you have been enjoying reading. You've basically just been stringing me along, like you have done to other people before me in years gone by. I won't ask a question of you again, I see there is no point, and that's okay. Believe what you wish. I'm seeing pretty clearly this evening. yep me too. The facts here speak for themselves, you had endless opportunities to answer the question clearly, but you haven't. I never clearly understood some of your behaviour towards some folks in years gone by (I was shocked at how you acted towards tenka when he had barely spoken to you). I get it now, you have loyalty to the team you pick, and one way of defending the team is to avoid answering any questions from the other team directly. Now I think about it, folks on the other forum DID give up asking you questions. |
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Post by Figgles on Feb 13, 2018 1:46:35 GMT
This was my experience in the car-deer accident. As the Present absence/Being, I felt what needed to be done next to alleviate the deer's pain. The Being-feeling-thinking-doing process kicked in with regard to a solution upon seeing the outcome. There weren't a lot of options. I stayed until it came to a conclusion. It was a heart knowing that kept me there until the end. If you didn't believe the deer had been suffering, there would have been no doing what needed to be done to alleviate the deer's pain. And when it played on your mind afterwards, it wasn't the recollection of the deer in pain that arose, it was the recollection of the deer's suffering that arose. There is a level at which the deer chose to experience suffering so that you could have an intense experience. You should honour the deer for what it gave you rather than denying that it experienced suffering. You're just playing around with words again. If Rowan defines suffering as a mental/conceptual overlay on top of the pain, then that would not need to be evident for him to feel prompted to take action...the apparent pain and discomfort of the animal would be, (and was) more than enough. And it's also important for you to see that while "Deer's choosing" stuff to help humans have important experiences is a nice story, it remains just that. Don't get too attached to your stories. Just sayin. Again, for the purpose of conversing with you specifically, I'm fine to create a new term. It just came to me; How about mental/conceptual suffering, vs. physiological pain/suffering? Again, we need a way to distinguish between a present moment arising of sorrow and a sense of loss, vs. a sense of needing to escape sorrow and loss....between a present moment arising of pain sensation vs. a conceptualized sense of needing to escape from that pain sensation. I experienced the distinction between the two so starkly when I gave birth. For most of the 12 hrs., I was present to the moment, focused upon each breath, each inhalation, exhalation....the pain that arose, hurt, yes, but there was not a sense of needing to escape. For a few moments though, getting near the actual birth, I got a little caught up a minding, lost focus, starting having thoughts such as: Oh my God, there's a kids head sticking out of my crotch...I'm gonna get ripped in two.....I can't do this...I need drugs.....I've never felt anything like this.....I am giving birth!!..yikes...and it suddenly became clear to me, that if I kept that up, I was gonna start screaming like the woman down the hall (haha...In retrospect, that might have been what temporarily threw me off in the first place)...and with that, I was right back to breathing, being present, and suddenly the pain once again become tolerable....it was there, burning, cramping, intense pressure, but no sense of suffering (in that I needed to escape what was happening). |
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Post by Figgles on Feb 13, 2018 1:50:19 GMT
Not much into fantasy these days. You weren't there. I didn't have to be, you've written about it clearly and emotionally, but you are missing the point of what the deer has offered to you. Recognizing that the deer suffered, is recognizing that it loved you so much that it was willing to suffer and sacrifice for you. I don't expect non-spiritual folks to see it like that, but you do have that potential, but it means seeing the truth of this, rather than fantasizing that the deer didn't suffer at all. Do you think you perhaps might be conflating the deer with Jesus Christ, Lord our Savior?  |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Feb 13, 2018 1:51:10 GMT
If you didn't believe the deer had been suffering, there would have been no doing what needed to be done to alleviate the deer's pain. And when it played on your mind afterwards, it wasn't the recollection of the deer in pain that arose, it was the recollection of the deer's suffering that arose. There is a level at which the deer chose to experience suffering so that you could have an intense experience. You should honour the deer for what it gave you rather than denying that it experienced suffering. You're just playing around with words again. If Rowan defines suffering as a mental/conceptual overlay on top of the pain, then that would not need to be evident for him to feel prompted to take action...the apparent pain and discomfort of the animal would be, (and was) more than enough. And it's also important for you to see that while "Deer's choosing" stuff to help humans have important experiences is a nice story, it remains just that. Don't get too attached to your stories. Just sayin. Again, for the purpose of conversing with you specifically, I'm fine to create a new term. It just came to me; How about mental/conceptual suffering, vs. physiological pain/suffering? Again, we need a way to distinguish between a present moment arising of sorrow and a sense of loss, vs. a sense of needing to escape sorrow and loss....between a present moment arising of pain sensation vs. a conceptualized sense of needing to escape from that pain sensation. I experienced the distinction between the two so starkly when I gave birth. For most of the 12 hrs., I was present to the moment, focused upon each breath, each inhalation, exhalation....the pain that arose, hurt, yes, but there was not a sense of needing to escape. For a few moments though, getting near the actual birth, I got a little caught up a minding, lost focus, starting having thoughts such as: Oh my God, there's a kids head sticking out of my crotch...I'm gonna get ripped in two.....I can't do this...I need drugs.....I've never felt anything like this.....I am giving birth!!..yikes...and it suddenly became clear to me, that if I kept that up, I was gonna start screaming like the woman down the hall (haha...In retrospect, that might have been what temporarily threw me off in the first place)...and with that, I was right back to breathing, being present, and suddenly the pain once again become tolerable....it was there, burning, cramping, intense pressure, but no sense of suffering (in that I needed to escape what was happening). I'm not playing with words, the definition I am using is the one everyone uses. Rowan hasn't defined it as such. If you want to speak of 'conceptual suffering' to speak of a particular kind of adult human suffering, that's fine with me, but I haven't got much to say because it's all been said before. The only point I have been making is that it's not okay to hijack the definition of 'suffering' so that we can no longer say that babies and animals suffer. It is better to specify the kind of suffering one wants to talk about (as you are doing). There was suffering in your experience of giving birth (distress, discomfort, dis-ease etc), but there were many other powerful things going on too. One can suffer and still love for example. |
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Andrew
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Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Feb 13, 2018 1:51:41 GMT
I didn't have to be, you've written about it clearly and emotionally, but you are missing the point of what the deer has offered to you. Recognizing that the deer suffered, is recognizing that it loved you so much that it was willing to suffer and sacrifice for you. I don't expect non-spiritual folks to see it like that, but you do have that potential, but it means seeing the truth of this, rather than fantasizing that the deer didn't suffer at all. Do you think you perhaps might be conflating the deer with Jesus Christ, Lord our Savior? lol no. I'm not a Christian for a start. |
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Andrew
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Posts: 8,345
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Post by Andrew on Feb 13, 2018 2:00:05 GMT
yep me too. The facts here speak for themselves, you had endless opportunities to answer the question clearly, but you haven't. I never clearly understood some of your behaviour towards some folks in years gone by. I get it now, you have loyalty to the team you pick, and one way of defending the team is to avoid answering any questions from the other team directly. Now I think about it, folks on the other forum DID give up asking you questions. That's quite the thought structure you have there, little man. It must be infuriating to know you'll one day have to collapse it. What you're attempting to project on me kinda explains your interest in conspiracy theories, and the basis for all your questions and evaluations this evening. I've learned if I have a question to ask it of my Self. Strangely enough, the answers arrive in a multitude of ways. I'll log into a computer and the answer may arrive as an email, or an article I somehow happened upon. An expression from a neighbor that comes out of the blue in a conversation (you do have neighbors, right?), or any other medium It determines to use regarding answers. If you don't approve, too bad. Well I am sure that if I was to track back through your forum history I would discover that those that asked questions of you, and were on the other team, didn't get direct answers to their questions. It's just how you are on forums I guess. Now I get it because I am on the opposing team. I don't think you are like that OFF the forum (though I imagine you might have some interesting patterns of behaviour when competing in golf or something). But now I know...so there's no point in asking you a question. I can relate to what you described in the second paragraph though. |
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